Inducements Orcs vs Dwarfs

[one_second_of_insanity]

Okay I have made it through into our finals system and just won my first final (round of 16) and am going into the quarter finals against a dwarf team that has not lost a single game in 2 seasons (and only 1 draw) and I have 310k inducements to spend, the teams are below:

My team : Bad Moon Brawlers

Blitzer - Side step, Frenzy
Blitzer - Mighty Blow, Tackle
Blitzer - +AG, Mighty Blow plus one normal skill (undecided at this point)
Blitzer - +AG, Tackle

Black Orc - Diving Tackle
Black Orcs - Guard
Black Orc - Guard, Block
Black Orc - Guard, Block

Troll - Guard

Thrower - Block

plus I have 2 rookie Line Orcs and a Rookie Goblin.

His Dwarf team

Rookie Blitzer
Blitzer with ST5 !!

Trollslayer - Tackle, Mighty Blow, Guard
Trollslayer - Tackle, Mighty Blow, +MA

Runner - Block, Leader, Kick off return, dodge, +ST
Runner - Block, Kick off return, kick

2 Blockers with Guard and wrestle
2 Blockers with guard
1 Blocker with guard and mighty blow
1 blocker with guard and frenzy
1 rookie blocker

Any ideas about what to pick plus ideas on the skill for the blizter would help

[mattgslater]

Blitzer: Stand Firm. Between him and your SS guy, you can own the position war. Try to use him to hold up Slayers or the ST5 Blitzer.

Inducements: Ripper! Ripper is awesome against a non-Stand-Firm-y Dwarf side, especially on offense. Use his ST6/Grab and your Frenzy Blitzer to chain a Block/Guard BOB into the backfield (nothin' but 3d, baby!), and lay the hit on a Slayer or Blitzer.

Wrestle on a Longbeard is silly. I'm sure he gets good use out of it, but he could do himself so much better with Stand Firm. Same thing for Tackle on the Slayers.

How does he set up his D? How comfortable are you with chain games? If you're a newcomer to Grab-chaining, I can diagram it for you. It's not great for immediate caging, but that's actually okay. Just keep the ball out of his (short) marking range, and be willing to QP or handoff to get the ball where you want it to be (you will want to support your Thrower deep with one or two other guys). You can build the formal cage on turn 2, from the O-line, after you assert your dominance there.

[Ullis]

A wizard is always good against dwarfs. If you don't have any idea how to best employ Grab (I don't myself, so matt, if you're willing please show us), then I'd steer clear of it. This is an important game for you and thus maybe not the best time to try something new, even if you get good instructions.

The bomber star player could be interesting as well. He's cheap and bombs are good against dwarves as well. They have to cage with that roster. Even if they intercept a bomb, they'll have troubles getting rid of it reliably.

So, my quick suggestion is wizard, Bomber Dribblesnot, bribe (for either Bomber or fouling). That works out at 310 exactly. With the Bomber and a wizard, you should be pretty confident at stopping his offence at least one. That should carry you through the match.

Last, I'd take Piling On for the blitzer.

[mattgslater]

Apologies for length: this is several posts on my one favorite topic in the whole world: Beating Dwarfs with Orcs! I hope you enjoy it; it cost me a lunchbreak.

I don't like Piling On vs. AV9. Since this is an elimination match, you should game for this one opponent. I also don't like Piling On + AG4. You want this guy on his feet. Stand Firm is great for carriers and forwards, and he's one or the other. Also, AG4 is great for wingers, but a great winger needs Stand Firm (or Side Step), especially vs. Frenzy

Obviously, keep your Goblin on the bench this match, unless you need to 1TTD. If you must field him, foul with him.

Fouling Dwarfs is bad math unless you have cheap players or are happy with a stun. The one big, huge whopper of an exception is Runners in the early game. Get a Runner on Turn 1, and Dwarfs are toast. That ST5 Blitzer is probably also critical to his game.

How is Diving Tackle on a BOB working for you? I see the temptation, but MA4/DT scares me away, and he can get such mileage out of Dodge or Side Step, so I've never done it.

***

If you want, I'll put up a post with detailed diagrams using screenshots in Play-Creator. If you tell me your (and his) team colors, I'll happily use them. I've already saved your teams on a blank pitch, for the purpose.

Have you seen this guy play? How does he set up his d-line against bash? Does he use all ST3/Guard Blockers? I really don't get his skill selections, but obviously it's working for him. That means I probably haven't seen his style. What does he do that works so well? Whatever you can tell me is great; the more I know, the better I scheme.

I'm guessing he'll try to mark your Blitzers or blitz your Thrower with his Wrestlers: try to keep non-Block guys on them instead. I'd use space to cope with the ST5 Blitzer, instead going full-bore at the other three ST3 guys... unless he's so stupid as to put him in harm's way, which I doubt. If he's on the D-line, clobber him! Ripper, Bommer and the Wiz are all really great foils to that guy. Your wings (MB/SF/AG4 and SS/Frenzy) will be well-positioned to move. You can go after the ball or hose the Frenzy guys. The AG4 guy is a little expensive to be man-marking with, but if you give him Stand Firm he can zone-mark Slayers or the Frenzy Blocker with impunity.

You have to win the block war. That can be taught, but not in an online post.

***

If you don't answer before I get to it tonight, I'll diagram the Ripper offense just vs, the Zig, assuming all ST3 on the LOS and a Guard Blocker in reserves. Truth be told, he has no way to game around your Ripper offense with the selection he has, but you may have to change it up a bit depending on what he puts on the line. The basic idea is to use Ripper to Grab a defender (push over pow) into an empty space on your side of the line, and then chainpush your own guy (who hasn't gone yet!) twice, into an enemy zone for a block, opening the way for a protected player. It's like an extra blitz, on a Runner or Slayer!

Because you have so much ST4 and Guard, it's easy to engineer a whole bunch of 3d blocks, which give you 19/27 to get the result you want, and 7/27 to at least get a compensation. Frenzy guy is great here, but since he's ST3, you want three assists on the first block, to be sure and get a push. You need to get 3 blocks, so take push over pow on the first two (Ripper, and the first follow-up). If Ripper doesn't get any arrows, then pow him diagonally, either direction, shrug your shoulders, follow, and continue to maim as you would normally.

If he sets up one square back, it's even better; instead of chaining one guy twice, you can chain two or even three guys once, and knock down six men. Not only that, but usually Ripper follows into a zone, leaving that guy in for a blitz (he probably has Guard).

This is also good if you have a short clock; if he's marching downfield and you force him to score in 6-7 turns, then set up with 2-3 turns, you can use this gimmick to drive an AG4 Blitzer upfield into the clear. Then cage around him and chuck to him, and he can get deep out of blitzing range, especially against a slow team.

So in a lot of ways, Ripper is like Bommer, plus a ST6 non-Stupid Troll with a gimmicky skill that sometimes matters. Because he's ST6 and isn't stupid, he's great for blitzing. He doesn't have Block, but if you don't give up more than one assist against ST5 guy, he's still only 50/50 for the opponent's strongest guy to knock down. If you game against Slayers right, he'll try very hard to keep them on your BOBs, while Ripper munches his way through the Longbeards. This is goodness, because he doesn't have any Stand Firm, so he can't neutralize Ripper's superior one-square game (3d/Grab), and thus can't effectively man-mark him unless you let him go wide (don't).

***

If you don't like the Ripper idea, use Ullis's inducement suggestions; he's right about the relative value of Bommer and a Wizard against this team. Wizards are particularly great against Dwarfs, because there are two totally awesome ways to use them on defense. You might take an Apo or 2x Babe over the Bribe; Bommer is a one-trick pony, and you can't afford to go man-down. If you had a Dirty Player, it would be a different matter.

He'll probably elect to kick if he wins the toss; if he doesn't, he's a smart fellow, but most folks dread the idea of playing defense man-down against Orcs and really want to take out at least one of your lynchpins. You should elect to receive first, which makes the toss kind of irrelevant.

If you receive first, use Bommer, let him get ejected (don't bribe), then go to the Wiz on defense. If you can get rid of a Runner before you Wiz so much the better; should he fail to cage for any reason, you can bolt the Runner, and the drive is yours. If he succeeds in caging, you can ball the carrier, and assuming average luck, his advantage as the offense just melts. He doesn't have enough positioning skills to run a loose cage, so he'll have no choice but to offer you low-hanging fruit.

[Carnis]

If you can induce stars, take ripper. Getting 4 BOBs, Ripper + Troll will get the dwarf in constant trouble. His team doesn't look too strong, only the Blodge/ST runner is mean, tag him with 2 players and try to get a DT BOB in there & he'll be screwed.

I would take guard on your +AG/MB blitzer, your blitzers are the best guard-position for orcs anyway cause they are best for repositioning & yours has +AG which means he is superb for repositioining. The dwarves only have 5 guard too, so if you can get a 5th as well you will have a significant advance in field-str.

I'd say you are actually the overdog as far as team value/team str rating goes. Coaching factor has to be high to account for his success in the previous games. His tackle has no effect on your team as well, rejoice.

[one_second_of_insanity]

Cheers Guys (esp Matt), I have never seen him play before (our league this season is about 46 players) so I'm not too sure about his playstyle.

I am really torn between guard and stand firm on the AG4 blitzer and can see arguments for both. The other quarter final that if I win will either be High Elves (TV190) or Chaos (TV240) so while I am choosing the skill for this game I do also want something that will contribute to the team in the future as well.

Diving Tackle has been great on the Black Orc in tying up Elves, with teams that dont have Frenzy I usually park him in a wide zone and he shuts it down making the pitch a lot easier for me to manage. He also goes on man marking with a guard black Orc and keeps several players pinned, he doesnt do much but he alters what the other team plays which to me is a big win. Further development with him is stand firm and then guard followed by block and then mighty blow (if he ever gets that far).

Ripper is looking as my go to Inducement I have used him a few times before but to be honest forgot he had grab

@matt I am curious to see what you have come up with, and thanks for spending a your lunch break on it (as I'm doing this when I really should be doing some drafting)

My team colours are yellow and his are blue

[mattgslater]

Took my screen shots, but you'll have to wait for tomorrow afternoon.

[one_second_of_insanity]

Much appreciated, the wait wont kill me the game is scheduled for one week away due to real life interfering for both of us

[mattgslater]

Man, I'm way too much of a perfectionist. I keep trying to write a dissertation using 247 screen-shots. So instead, what I'm going to do is to explain a rough order of operations.

First,



I have no idea if that's the defense he's going to use. This doesn't work against deep defenses, but given that it's slow-on-slow, I don't think he'll set up deep. If he sets his guys up one square back, your Troll will get into the action too. But note that you need 8-9 guys to put near the line, making this most useful against a slower team, like these Dwarfs. Truth be told, you can do it with fewer (instead of the center pushing and following, you can just use empty space, for example), but in this case all the early action will be shallowl so there's little reason to set up deep.

In this diagram, your blocking will naturally leave you with players on your left (the top side) unused. This means he'll almost certainly kick to your right, at bottom. His low MA means that, assuming he sets up two squares back, he has a good chance even with Kick of putting the ball out of his own reach. I put the ball on the intersection, because he may decide that it's worth a 1/8 of a touchback. If he kicks deep against you, chuckle, drop back, and be prepared to make an elfy QP/handoff on turn 2.

Of course, if the ball goes into his blitzing range, you need to use Z3 to go protect it. This is a major portion of the magic of Stand Firm on a Blitzer: by camping on the ball, you can keep him from being driven off with Frenzy. If you get a deep kick or a touchback, you can do your line-blocks first, in the hopes of using SF/MB guy to blitz or assist/mark on the blitz against one of those flankers. If the ball goes really wide, this could prevent Ripper from following, because you need to make a screen with the Stand Firm guy, or you're running a big risk. This makes the final line-block only 2d. If the ball goes to the sidelines, you may need to cover with the Thrower too; this sucks, but it beats a turnover.

Line-blocks:
1) B2 blocks the right (top) end. Note that you're opening without Block. This is because you will be picking up with SH and shouldn't make anything else riskier than 1/27, and you really don't want a nothing/Wrestle, meaning you'd TRR it anyway. So non-Block guy is 80/81 to do his job (a push is fine, but a pow is better). Push laterally, so the Troll gets to hit too. And most important of all, follow! The empty space vacated by B2 is the important part.

2) Ripper hits his man. Note Ripper has an assist, and the Dwarf does not, so Ripper gets 3d. 19/27 says Ripper gets a push, and Grabs his guy into the empty space on your line. If Ripper gets a pow but no pushes (7/27), he should leave the defender behind the line, whether or not he uses Grab. This thwarts your plan, but isn't terrible news. Ripper should follow if he doesn't have to maintain a screen with Z3, because his assist makes the last block a 3d job. Again, that's less important than protecting the ball.

3) If the Dwarf end that Ripper hit is still standing, Z1 Frenzy-blocks him 3d/2d, going for pushes the first time and pows the second time, both times chaining B4 into the backfield. If his second block is only a push, then push the Troll so B1 can make the chain-push at 3d (gunning for a pow, of course). Also, if the defense is set up only one square back, push B4 and the Troll. This will also push along the other Dwarf end. If he's still standing, Z2 or the Troll can pick him off.

4) B4 makes his block on the midfielder, following if B1 or Z2 is still free, unless you've decided to blitz the flank instead.

5) Blitz. Runner, flanker, whatever. Use either B1 or Z2, depending on what you need to do. I'd rather hit 2d with Z2, or 1d on the Runner with Z2 if I had a TRR, or 2d with B1 if I didn't meet those prerequisites.

6) Now, B3 gets 3d on the Dwarf nose-guard. A push beats a nothing, but you're fishing for pow.

And you still have 3-5 guys left to go, after protecting the ball and making all your blocks. If you do it right, your line-blocks will also have formed a pretty solid foundation for a cage. Most notably, Z4, your AG4 Blitzer without Stand Firm, is free to act.

Blitz or Perfect D may kill this plan. That's 1/6 collectively. You will not always get your chain. That's okay; you're really only investing one action in it (two blocks, but one of them is part of a Frenzy).

Edited 19:54 GMT; changed text on block #5.

[mattgslater]

Defense with Ripper:

You can't actually stop him from getting all 2d blocks on the LOS with just Blockers; he has just too much Guard not to game his way into 2-3 net assists wherever he needs them on the first turn of offense, without any Move actions. But you can try to force a mistake. If you put the Troll on the nose and Block/Guard BOBs on each flank, you might get him to put a positional on the line. If that's the ST5 Blitzer, remember to chuckle only on the inside! If you know that won't work, use the Guard BOB, moving the DT BOB next to Ripper and putting the Troll in at "strong safety."

Your backfield better be two squares behind scrimmage; he has enough Guard to follow into assists on a one-square-back defense and isn't fast enough to merit a deep setup.

Blitzers 1 and 3 are your wings. Z1 plays in an inverted wing with Z4 as a protected flanker, and winger Z3 plays parallel with flanker Z2. I know parallel flanks aren't popular, but you don't want Z2 chained to the sidelines on 2d blocks. That leaves you 4x BOB, Troll, Ripper and the Thrower.

On the inverted side, your midfielder and safety are either your Thrower or a Lineman, and your DT BOB. In context, your Thrower is about as tough as your Linemen, because he'll only take 2/3 to 3/4 as many knockdowns. But if you kick first, you may want to use a Lineman, in case you get a foul on a positional (and so you know your Thrower won't get hurt). If you're kicking in the second half, the Thrower is more useful.

On the parallel side, maintain the parallel theme with B2 hugging the sidelines, and Ripper next to him. That way, he'll be hesitant to use a Slayer, and he'll want to work out how to make it happen with the ST5 Blitzer... or on the other side. This is great, because Z3 is a first-rate ballhawk. Too bad you don't have a kicker.

[one_second_of_insanity]

Cheers Matt

I have copied down all the info so I can look at it in a bit more detail, thanks for all the time taken to prepare this.

[mattgslater]

Oops. Made a mistake.

On the parallel side, maintain the parallel theme with B2 hugging the sidelines, and Ripper next to him.

Replace "sidelines" with "wide zone markers." Sorry about that. I'm talking about midfield defense here, but I used the wrong term.

[Ullis]

This is most impressive. I'd always though of Grab as a strange gimmick skill and useful in setting up gang fouls or opening up lanes but this looks pretty great. Getting that extra block (or even two!) is nothing to sneeze at, especially against lighter teams.

[one_second_of_insanity]

Right the game was played last night and it was epic ... unfortunately I lost. For only the second time this entire season I did not finish the half with rerolls and in both halves my 3 rerolls were gone by turn 4 at the latest.

Ripper was great and a real let down at the same time he turned me over a few times. The offense set up worked beautifully and would have been better if I could actually get through Dwarf armour and the couple of times that I did I only managed a stun. I( have never before been able to generate so many 3D blocks.

Cheers for all the help, now to take them next season and hopefully go a little better.

[mattgslater]

Bummer. Happy future Rippin', though. At least it's a dark cloud with a silver lining.