Elvish defense

[sunnyside]

My current league is low on the various elven races, especially the woodies who are supposed to be full of cheesy goodness.

I'm not sure, but I suspect it might be because MB+PO+tackle spam and dirty players eventually get to be too much for them in a perpetual league format or because their start is brutal because their players are so pricey and their star player selection leaves something to be desired and doesn't even kick in until a 150TR difference.

But I'm thinking of giving them a try. Maybe:

2 Wardancers
1 thrower
8 lineelves
2 TRR to start or downgrade a dancer for an APO or more likely TRR #3 (Or go dancerless and get both than look to get dancers)

But more than that I'm wondering about how elves defend and develop to counter 2-1 grinding murderous bash teams.

I'm thinking of trying to spread the SPPs out to get near team blodge/wrodge (Maybe get some passing skills on the thrower before blodge?), getting the treeman to shore up the center and take a hit on defense, and avoiding catchers until my TR is ~160 or higher, at which point I figure I'd want some of that speed. Though 2D blocks are probably easy to come by vs WE, so maybe starting with dodge is actually better.

For defensive tactics leaping seems risky business, even if I develop the wardancers for it, there are plenty of sure hands+blodge ball carriers out there surrounded in a big ball of guard.

I'm tempted to try using dodge and 2D blocks to clear my players of the other team and try to stand one square off of their cage, restricting their forward progress. Swarming them if they get close (which would become more effective eventually with some side step).


I'm also tempted to get a frenzy dancer or other player than can try to clear away a cage corner and let in a protected diving tackle player to mark their carrier. Could it be useful to get dauntless on a player or two as a third skill? It seems like stopping their forward progress works better if they can't rely on your dodging off of ther S4 and S5 players every turn and have to worry about you blocking down the front of their cage and exposing the ball carrier.

[mattgslater]

1) Don't play the basher's game!

2) Get a kicker!

3) Build to crack cages and survive. If it's not named Block, Dodge, Guard or Side Step, it should be either a cage-breaker, one Thrower or maybe an occasional one-off pick.

[sunnyside]

So what makes for a good cage breaking skillset for WE? Some diving tackle? Dauntless? Tackle on dancers?

But I agree with blodge+sidestep for most players and guard on doubles for anybody but the thrower. Actually how would you suggest building a thrower. The natural blodge desire conflicts with the usual throwing skills.

[dines]

Dauntless is really nice combined with wrestle, that way you get the big nasty guys down and away. This is likely on a lineelf.

[mattgslater]

My High Elves have no Dauntless at all, and they still get all the openings they need. But 1x Blodge/Dauntless is great for dealing with big guys.

[Smeborg]

sunnyside - I think you underestimate the value of Catchers on this team. Their starting Dodge is very handy, and having players with 2 re-roll skills is important on this expensive side. I prefer to start with:

2 Wardancers
3 Catchers
1 Thrower
5 Linos
1 Re-roll

for exactly 1,000,000. Although it is 1 RR lighter, this roster has 6 more re-roll skills. Against opponents without Tackle, the Catchers are better protected than the Linos. You won't outbash these opponents, you need the skills and speed, you don't need the "ST" of Linos.

Hope that helps.

[Drool_bucket]

@Sunnyside: I completely support your starting roster, I am just starting my own team with this line up. Catcher do take away SPP from your lineelfs, especially late in the game. I much prefer the passer because he has the built in re-roll on his end, and can offer more than a quick pass with a low rate of turn over. This opens up the field more for your team management move *during* games. Your lineelf/positional that needs 3 SPP or less for a skill, the passer can get him the ball a lot easier than a catcher can in most instances.

and while I feel the catcher as ball handler is okay as someone who hands the ball off by sprinting up and handing it off, you are losing the option of getting that Leader RR very quickly while saving $$ for your catchers.

I also don't like lots of starting catchers because it hurts overall on-field STR. Prior to skilling up your lineelfs you have to bash a little bit in your early games. I am not advocating standing in by any means, but instead of dodging everyone out and using tackle zones and constant pressure to play defense, you dodge out one lineelf to go and block(without following up) with another.

My WE teams usually have a pretty respectable about of CAS per game. The trick is not offering up too many CAS the other way....

On Defense: My woodelfs do two things on defense. They set up tacklezones that the opponent has to move into on their turn, which slows their movement, and two, I constantly put pressure on the offense.

By setting up a wall of tacklezones you can slow a cage to a halt. Then you have to stick in a bit and knock them back. Skills like Sidestep, Fend and Block are all important for this. You are certainly not trying to halt the cage, you are just holding it in position, keeping it out of range of a one turn score and just keeping you elves on the pitch.

While this is going on you are using your WD, Shadowing/Sidestepping, high team MV and an "outlet" player to provide pressure. And by pressure I mean constant threat to pop the ball out of a cage. This can be done with a few key skills. First is Strip ball. Unforunately, SB is easily negated and I have begun moving away from it. But WD skill so quickly that you can often afford to take it once, just in case you are up against someone that doesn't have it. The other skill is Frenzy. Poorly made cages can be deformed and then knocked apart with a couple Blocks and a follow up Frenzy double block. With Leap as an option you can get the angle you need to make it work. Finally, your "outlet" player is just waiting to receive the ball as soon as it pops out and run in for the score. This is vital because most cage breaks result with your guys standing next to opposing players. If you don't score right away you may be in for some major hurt.

Finally, if your opponent scores its not the end of the world. Scoring with WE is easy, its the defense that's hard against a good coach. I'd rather let him score and keep my players on the pitch. If they are going for a classic 2-1 grind, oh, well, that's what you get when you play Wood Elfs. Its the one aspect of the game that is hard for them.

For skill development I do the following. Since skilling up who you want and generally when you want is pretty easy (MVP aside) I generally develop each of my players to perform specific tasks for my team, and depending on what teams are on my upcoming schedule I make the appropriate choices.

WD(hunter): Dauntless,Wrestle,Stripball (Mighty Blow)
WD(killer): Frenzy, Sidestep, (Mighty Blow)
Thrower(initial): Leader, Accurate (Strong Arm)
Thrower(secondary): Sure hands, Dodge (Stong Arm)
Catchers(offense): Sprint, Shadowing (Guard)
Catchers(defense): Sprint, Passblock (Guard)
Lineelf (tough) block, fend
Lineelf (flighty) dodge, sidestep
Lineelf (utility) kickx1, dirty playerx1

note: the second Thrower is specifically designed to go get the ball after a WD knocks it out. He is really a luxury to have but I generally don't get him till 4 catchers are purchased.

I am not a Treeman coach, mostly because I usually switch away from a team after 15-20 games, but if you intend to go beyond that I feel a Treeman would be a strong addition for overall team survival.

Frenzy/MB changes everything, IMO. This (killer)WD lone job is to remove players from the pitch. Anyone near a sideline goes first, then the opposing player with the lowest AV.

A dirty player is often to keep the other coach honest, make sure you remind him that you have one. I only use one if a key opposing player goes down and I can get a enough tackle zones on said player.

My first lineelf gets Kick. Makes defense a lot easier because you can force errors because of initial ball placement and the WE ridiculous threat range.

[Master Wang]

I've recently started a Wood Elf team, and am not convinced by the cries of "cheese, cheese!" I hear from most corners, but I am new to them and I guess in the hands of those with more experience they are probably quite something. Low armour and a fairly high amount of d6 rolls made my first game with them exciting. I won, but a failed WD dodge at the end of the first half meant I faced a lot of pressure in the second half going in tied 1-1 rather than 2-1. I won 3-1, but both of my second half scores were due to my opponent over-extending rather badly, if he'd been more careful, a win would have been much less likely and a beating could have ensued. In general, from what I've seen on stuntyleeg.com, kickings seem to be what happens to Woodies more often than not, I've even seen a game where not a single Wood Elf was on the pitch at the end!

Defending, I guess, will be like most other high speed elf/skaven teams.

Against bash:
1) Get Kick, kick deep.
2) If the ball isn't in a cage around the midfield area, rush players into the backfield to either cut the ball carrier off from his team mates, or if the ball is caged deep, cut the cage off from the rest of the team. Depending on the speed/agility of my opponents, I might mark players directly, or just put tackle zones in the way. Other helpful skills here would be Sidestep and Diving Tackle, probably on 2 Block catchers.
3) If the ball gets caged, but my opponent doesn't have Guard or defensive skills on his ball carrier, I would probably risk the leaping blitz. Frenzy and Strip Ball for this BUT it won't be long before this play is very low reward for very high risk. As mentioned above. Have someone in position to pick up a dropped ball, and someone else within range to score.
If my opponent has lots of Guard, hopefully I have lots of skills, too, i.e. Dodge on my linemen. If this is the case, it's two rows of defenders stalling the cage. If I get desperate, I may knock off one back corner of the cage late in the drive and mark the ball carrier.

And that's about it. Get lucky with the kick and it's gravy. If not, personally I find the stalling defense to be a nightmare as double ones or AV7 usually send it south.

Against other non-bashy types, I don't have much of a set strategy yet. My games of that type often end up being a race to score the most and hoping for some luck with opponents' failed rolls or injuries. The main thing I do is set up tackle zones to force lots of dodges and hope for double ones. But this is all from experience with other races, I have a feeling Leap will make me play a little differently when my Woodies face other elves etc.

[sunnyside]

Hmmm. I see the point on having more re-roll skills. Especially since everyone seems to agree defending against bash requires a lot of dodge. The low strength seems an issue. But usually opponents can get a 2D block anyway, and they're actually more resiliant with their dodge. I figure I'll dodge away the catchers to set up the 2D blocks for linemen or the dancer. So I'm thinking of going

1 dancer
3 catchers
1 thrower
6 lineelves
2 TRR
1st purchase APO. I'd probably add anything on the second purchase if it'd take me to 12 players, but if I'm running journeymen anyway I'd probably save up for another dancer or treeman.


I just don't feel comfortable with 1 rr. I've played elven teams like that and have always spanked them soundly as I force them to make a lot of rolls and than watch them self destruct.


I'm convinced about kick, but I'm not so sure about not giving line elves blodge or wrodge.

Hmmm, what would people suggest on that. Do elves do better being wrestly? Better for getting opponents down, and would make it easier to get away from a blitzer potentially. Also increases the chance they bungle establishing ball carrier protection.

[Smeborg]

I'm convinced about kick, but I'm not so sure about not giving line elves blodge or wrodge.

Hmmm, what would people suggest on that. Do elves do better being wrestly? Better for getting opponents down, and would make it easier to get away from a blitzer potentially. Also increases the chance they bungle establishing ball carrier protection.

A suggested method for Linos would be as follows:

- First normal skill Dodge (Guard on doubles).

- Second normal skill Wrestle (Guard on doubles).

- If they have Guard as first or second skill, give them Block instead of Wrestle (and Block before Dodge, if they get Guard first).

Another way of looking at things is that on any other team, the WE Linos would be positional players. Dodge increases re-inforces their biggest starting asset: mobility.

Hope that helps.

[mattgslater]

With AG4 lineman-heavy teams, you can put skills on the line without too much concern, so long as those skills help the player survive. As survival skills go, Dodge is king, Side Step is a close second (at least on the LOS), Wrestle is a little better than Block, and Block is a little better than nothing.

First lino gets Kick first, then Wrestle (for sacking). For the others...

Wood or Dark? Dodge first. Then Side Step.
High? Dodge first, then Side Step, except one guy who does it in reverse order to play wing. That way one of your Blitzers can avoid Side Step and load up on hunter skills (not that Side Step isn't in the hunter progression; it's the thnead of Blood Bowl).
Pro? Dodge or Side Step, then the other one. Be consistent: your goal is to spam either/or.

Doubles on linos and Catchers makes Guard, until you have three Guards (hopefully a Catcher among them). Then you can get cute, taking Catchers with Nerves or Linos with Grab or whatever... or just ignore the doubles and go back to basics. Two Guards (or one and a +ST guy) are awesome on offense. Guard is a fair defensive skill, but on a ST3 LOS it's only enough against Guardless elves. There is such a thing as too much Guard on an elf team; it just takes a whole lot of luck to get there.

[voyagers_uk]

Side Step....... it's the thnead of Blood Bowl)

lovely quote

[sunnyside]

Ok, I'm seeing a number of comments about taking side step right after dodge.

Could you explain in terms of what happens on the field why that is? It would seem that with fragile players that will be short on re-rolls for a while, skills like block or wrestle would be the logical next choice. It increases their survivability vs the blitzes that will come every turn and increases the chances they can be assisted to clear someone marking them with their own 2D block. I suppose side step could prevent chain blocking on the line of scrimmage, but they're still more likely to be standing after two 2D blocks with block and dodge compared to one 2D block with dodge alone (vs a block skilled opponent) if I just did my numbers right. And that reduces the odds the player throwing the hit by someone with mighty blow, and further ties up more of their team on the LOS, increasing the odds of exploiting something.

Obviously I see the potential as the third skill on a lineelf, or maybe the second on a catcher. It lets you potentially really gum up their attempt at caging. and such


Hmmmm is the idea that it just takes to long to develop that third skill, so you need to get to side stepping goodness early, even if it means more elves going facedown?

[mattgslater]

Side Step prevents chains. On the LOS, that's where about a third of the damage occurs. Beyond that, it's a great skill for screening and marking. Wrestle and Block don't have nearly as big an impact on the amount of damage you take, unless you play an all-Block opponent. They're best off for getting stuck in, which isn't the best thing for your linos to be doing most of the time.

[Smurf]

My starting line was:

1 Thrower
2 Wardancers
1 Catcher
7 Line
1 Apoth.

Stuff the reroll, you'll only burn it.

I gave my secondary Thrower Kick... Line can get more useful skills
Note the new skill to have for a primary Thrower is Safe Throw!