Tackle, when and how much?

[Overhamsteren]

Just wondering how much you prioritise tackle in your development when in a dodge heavy league (dark elf, goblin, several skaven, slann but also dwarf, bashy orc and chaos) if that is in fact dodge heavy.

My team is 4 blitzers, 4 line orcs, 4 gobs, 2 throwers. No more purchases besides apothecary.

Development looks like:

Blitzer: guard, stand firm, maybe fend (dodge)
line: wrestle, fend (dodge)
Thrower: block, Kick of Return, leader (dodge)
Gobbos: side step (wrestle)

I was thinking giving the two first blitzers: Tackle then Guard and then maybe Frenzy or is frenzy hopeless with guard?


How is your approach to dodgers and tackle?

[nazgob]

First off, frenzy does not combo well with guard [on the same player]. Its not completely horrible and guard is alway helpful, but at the end of the day, if you don't have total control over the location of you guard player then you're going to run into issues.

That said, I have been known to use Frenzy as a tackle substitute. The second block makes up for fail on 'defender stumbles' results, while you can also use it to surf those annoying dodge players. I also like it as Frenzy is a far more general skill than tackle, being both the poor man's tackle and mighty blow. Although I won't take more than one, at most two, frenziers on the team you're describing.

As for tackle, I tend to carry only one dedicated blitzer (mighty blow, tackle) on my human team, and he teams up with my (one) frenzier rather effectively.

On bashier teams though I think you need to run Tackle heavy, particularly in a dodge heavy environment. You don't have the speed/agility to get your tackle to where its needed. For my money, I'd be taking Block/Tackle linemen over your wrestle fend, and would probably go mighty blow/tackle, mighty blow/guard on the blitzers (2 of each). my reason for mighty blow first is twofold. a) its easier to get SPP with mighty blow b) remove enough players and dodge becomes worthless as you outnumber them so much.

[Cyrus-Havoc]

I think you need to take tackle as a first skill on one blitzer but the rest should all consider taking guard first. After that you will want to mix it up a bit and will probably want another tackler, but you will also want some mighty blow too.

[JaM]

Frnzy combos well with guard, IF you put them together. I always try to give my Dwarf blitzer guard to get the Trollslayer his 2d-blocks. MB follows shortly after that (pun intended). However,that's with dwarfs. The rest of the team can and will probably hold the line while you blitz/block/frenzy some opponents to the sidelines for a well-deserved surf.

Since you dont use BOs I'd stay away a bit from frenzy. your blitzers are your fast players with decent STR. I'd go with tackle MB (pick your poison wich one first) on them, maybe 1 with frenzy but only if you have already some guard on other players.
Frenzy can be tricky, if you are "forced" to cage. Just so you know.

I'd like to have kick on a lino, also block. Perhaps tackle is good too, in this league.
Then again, dodge are most of the time given to the fast(er) players, and stopping those require a blitz,so... on the blitzers seems good enough. Just stopping them (after they enter your half) and getting the ball loose is enough most of the time.

Hope it helps !

[nazgob]

Frnzy combos well with guard, IF you put them together.

Just realised my original post did not come accross clearly, so I've edited it. As JaM says, frenzy and guard do work well together. What I was saying was that frenzy and guard do not work so well together on the same player

[funnyfingers]

I think the blitzers should be thinking MB, Guard, Tackle.

[MKL]

Blitzer: guard, stand firm, maybe fend (dodge)

I think Stand Firm+Fend is not the best combo.
Stand Firm+Guard and/or Tackle is a better choice, imo.

[Digger Goreman]

I like Nazgob's approach....

Strictly on a "mechanics" viewpoint, Tackle might help burn an occasional reroll on the ag4s, but really will be harder on the ag3s with dodge.... Of course, on a meta-gaming level, you might stunt the ag4 teams' growth as they invest quicker in enough rerolls to overcome the perceived threat of tackle....

As far as how many? One is too easy to isolate.... At least one to a side of the field and on mobile pieces.... Having faced Diving Tackle snotlings... you might want to consider this as a first, non-doubles skill on your Gobbos....

[JaM]

Yeah, spamming tackle wouldnt work and is too expensive. I'd take it on 2-3 blitzers though, for (indeed) blitzing.
Well, it would work, but the cost is too high IMHO.
Diving tackle could indeed work on the gobs. Never considered it actually . Probably have to look it up what it does .

MB shouldnt be overlooked either. You want the players on the ground, stunned. Espescially the "moving" peices (catchers and their ilk).

About the frenzy-guard combo: I'd take MB forst, tackle second, and then guard (or stand firm) on the Trollslayer I used in the example.
Frenzy + guard on the same player... could be. But frenzy + MB + tackle is a tastier combo.

[mattgslater]

I like to get a lot of Stand Firm so I only need one Tackle guy early, then take it as a popular #3 or #4 pick.

[Alamar]

All of the advice is reasonable. I like the idea of getting one or two players with either Tackle or Frenzy or something like that early. Later on [after some combination of MB ; Guard ; Stand Firm ; etc.] getting Tackle as a 2nd or 3rd skill in a dodge heavy league would be a good idea. In a [very?] Dodge light league as a 3rd or 4th skill it would be fine.

Note: You could just forget tackle and get lots of [other] folks to play Dwarves. That may make Elves not want to invest in Dodge

[Duke Jan]

Regarding the frenzy/guard combo on the same player. It has definite benefits. You can use your frenzier to block himself into a position where he can assist a blitz or block by his team-mates. How often have you thought: if only I could get a guard guy in the middle of all those opponents? With Frenzy he can.

[spubbbba]

Since you dont use BOs I'd stay away a bit from frenzy. your blitzers are your fast players with decent STR. I'd go with tackle MB (pick your poison wich one first) on them, maybe 1 with frenzy but only if you have already some guard on other players.
Frenzy can be tricky, if you are "forced" to cage. Just so you know.

eh

What am I missing? I can't see any reason to not take Black Orcs as they are great, even against elves they would still be useful and you can give them guard 2nd skill and the blitzers tackle as 1st/2nd skill.

[Duke Jan]

BOs are overrated. I have had a lot of fun and opponents surprised at the hard time they got playing against my team in a tourney without the slow easily pinned-down blockless lumps of green meat.

[JaM]

My team is 4 blitzers, 4 line orcs, 4 gobs, 2 throwers. No more purchases besides apothecary.

@spubbbba: this is what the OP posted as his team, 1st post.
It has it's benefits, you have an AV-high team (blitzers + Linos) with decent movement (gobs) adn decent throwers.
Something different, true. But viable. Definatly fun.
Wasnt it Smeborg (not sure) who compared such a line-up with 'Humans, but with high AV", perfectly suited for the running game ?

And until the BOs get block and MB, they are indeed lumps. Strong lumps, but oh so slow to skill up.
You skill up a line orc faster (easier to score with them than with BOs), and giving them block (for instance) will net you a very decent LOS.

Anyway: it's his deciscion (sp?). No BOs. Although I love the troll in the Orc line-up, even for just throwing a gobbo now and then