Block Or Piling On?

[Munkey]

I did a bit of number crunching and came up with the result that giving my Black Orcs Piling On first rather than Block means they will be twice as likely to get a casulty result (thus gaining further experience), as well as more likely to cause a KO so I can win the blocking war.

Of course this does not take into account other problems like the potential TO's caused by careless blocking and the fact that the Black Orcs will be targets by spending a fair amount of time on the floor.

I realise this will probably cause a little extra pain in the short term (until they get Block) but with that second skill quite far away the extra speed in getting it would be a big incentive.

Has anyone tried this? Is it worth it or should I be conventional and go for Block.

[Zy-Nox]

you could take 1 of them with piling on, the rest take block, that way one can give you your Cas count.
Or give them Guard, Its quite valuable on them.

[Khrage]

I had two Black Orcs gain levl one at approximately the same time. Gave one Block, gave the other Piling on. It has been five or so games since and Piling on is about 3 spps from next skill, Block is 8 from.

I find the Piling on has been worthwile, but costly. No big difference, other than who I chose to block with first. Piling on cost me my one loss this season (14 wins 1 loss). Doubldown Skull, reroll, doubldown Skull. Opponent score.

[Munkey]

I have considered Guard as well, not to mention Stand Firm on a double - too many skills not enough SPPs!

What I was really wondering was, is it worth taking Piling On from the point of view of the individual Black Orcs development. I.e. will the slightly faster gain of SPPs make up for the additional pain of not having Block.

I may go 50/50 though giving me two reliable Black Orcs and Two Big Hitters.

[Xynok]

This is a great topic, and I will give my perspective on it. Bascially, Black Orcs develop s l o w l y. 2 dice just isn't reliable. Period. I gave my BOs Block, and it has been OK, but in a League where most players have Block already (especially by 2nd season), and considering how long it takes them to get it, Piling On is hard to ignore. Still, Block has stopped the Turnovers...Piling On won't help you in that department.

I would probably give at least one of your BOs Piling On before Block and see what happens. The problem isn't the BO being on the ground, the problem is knocking down your opponent in the first place! This is why it is such a hard choice. Once knocked down, of COURSE Piling On is the superior skill (pretty much guranteed Stun with ST 4)...but what good does it do you on a push, or worse, a Block result?

Ultimately, I feel Block is the way to go, because the routine Turnovers will cost you games and team development. Perhaps ONE with Piling On, but I see it as a secondary skill honestly.

Good topic.

[manusate]

Pile On is not a good skill choice for Black Orcs. They will make better use of MB or Guard.

[Khrage]

Gotta disagree. Piling on has helped my team's overall development. I would't rely on it alone, but getting a couple BOBs with it can seriously help. If you have enough rerolls that you don't mind rerolling the occasioinally doubledown result, then block can help you to open up the backfield against the dodge back one square tactics. Making sure to blitz with your BOB each time (yes it will require Go For Its) makes it more likely to bust up the defense. At least in my experience.

BOBs are slow, but then again they don't need to go anywhere fast anyway. When they block it needs to hurt. MB is good and Guard is great, but Piling On definitely has its place in that line up of skill choices.

[DoubleSkulls]

If you play Piling On so that you chooes to go prone after the Av roll is made then it is a great skill and I'd certainly recommend it on BOBs - even over Block as with a bit of luck you are getting ~1 cas per game from it.

If you are playing PO before the Av roll is made then its a weaker skill and I'd take block first.

PO wins for me over MB because it helps against high Av teams much more. Against Av9 MB gets 6.5% casualties per knock down while PO gets 12%. The proportion is about the same for KO's too, and PO is getting through armour nearly three times as often.

Then I'd take Guard as a third skill - except for 1 BOB who takes it as a first skill for the LoS.

Ian

[Deathwing]

But there's the obvious counter argument that while PO is better per knockdown, you're going to be scoring less knockdowns if you spend half your time standing up. What's the numbers for AV8?

[DoubleSkulls]

But there's the obvious counter argument that while PO is better per knockdown, you're going to be scoring less knockdowns if you spend half your time standing up. What's the numbers for AV8?

Code: Select all

      Stun   KO    Cas
MB    19.7%  12.0% 10.0%
PO    48.6%  20.8% 13.9%
Ratio 2.46   1.73  1.39

So vs Av8 PO is a bit better at casualties, and much better at actually getting through Armour. Also if you play PO goes prone after the armour roll you know your opponent is at least stunned.

There are some probabilities on the ECBBL site if you want to have a look

[Deathwing]

Ok, thanks Ian, interesting. Of course what the numbers can't illustrate is the effect of placing your player prone and subsequent loss of TZ, susceptibility to fouling etc. And as I mentioned previously, PO might be better per knock-down, but you're going to be causing less of them.
Judgement call I guess.

[DoubleSkulls]

Yeah, PO is a bit of a two edged sword - especially if you go prone before the Av roll is made.

PO always feels better than MB - mainly because you get through armour most of the time, giving you the shot at the injury. My only PO player at the moment is averaging 1 cas per game (with Block and now Guard). My MB blitzer is only getting 1/2 per game. I block as much as I can with both of them.

As for fouling, I think with IGMEOY anything that encourages your opponent to foul is a good thing - by using PO and fouling in the same turn you leave your opponent in a nasty quandry - do I foul the PO player and give my opponent another foul on me?

This is why its such a good skill for Orcs - high Av and a couple of DP's and you want to engage in a fouling war. Very few teams can keep up with that. Also even if one BOB with PO gets taken out, you've still got 3 more - this doesn't apply for other team's big guys.

PO is basically a difficult skill - you are generally sacrificing tactical position for strategic advantage. Some like it, some don't. I think, if you really want to build a team to hurt the opposition one or two PO's is a good choice and then back them up with MBs. You don't want the whole team lying down.

Ian

[Munkey]

Thanks for all the advice.

Having listened to both sides of the argument I think i'll give the first BO Piling On and the next one to get a skill Block and see where that gets me.

Probably no need to have more than two with Piling On anyway I reckon so the others will probably get different skills unless it boosts their advancement much more than I think it will.

I agree that Piling On will probably help more against the strength teams than against the low armour teams but hopefully will help me to press the run a bit more.

A lot of you have advised Guard, is this not a skill that will be of more use later, when my opponents start getting it as the BO's have a strength advantage against most teams anyway? This is bearing in mind that I intend to have a Troll/Ogre in the front line as well. Of course if you are playing in a league with more established teams I guess this is more important.

[DoubleSkulls]

A lot of you have advised Guard, is this not a skill that will be of more use later, when my opponents start getting it as the BO's have a strength advantage against most teams anyway? This is bearing in mind that I intend to have a Troll/Ogre in the front line as well. Of course if you are playing in a league with more established teams I guess this is more important.

Opinion is divided on the issue. Plenty of coaches think you don't need guard when you've got S4.

Guard is a skill that is useful if you are stuck in the middle of a big ruck, both to reduce the number of blocks your opponent can throw and help you pick opponents to hit. Since BOBs are always in the middle of a big ruck guard is a good skill.

On the setup a single guarding BOB can make your Los unpleasant for S3 teams, or even Orc/Chaos teams who don't have their own guard.

However since BOBs progress so slowly by taking guard you are pretty much giving up on getting a 3rd skill for a long time. Maybe Block/MB or PO/Guard would be ideal.

Ian

[Khrage]

Guard is a skill I look to get on one or two of my BOBs for their second skill choice, but I won't put it on a Piling On player. I play in a bruising league (last BB was between Undead and Chaos) and I quickly discovered that the 4 str BOBs can benefit from guard every now and then. I alternate MB and Guard for second skills on my Block BOBs. My Piling On BOBs get block for their second skill. If you want to get the full benefit from Guard, the guy needs to be standing most of the time, so Piling On doesn't quite fit.