Talk Fantasy Football

What do you think is the best way to develop Norse runners?

I think that everybody agrees on Dodge and Side-Step. That's two skills. Then you can give Sure Hands to one of them, always useful to replace a missing thrower or to be used as main ball-carrier. So that's two skills on one, three skills on the other.

All stat increases are good to take, I think there's general agreement there as well but you can't always expect to get stat increases.

What to take on a double is less obvious. I took Guard on one of my runners but I haven't found that choice very satisfying as I don't like to use runners to provide assists and I prefer to let them on their own, either in an offensive or defensive position. Nerves of steel might have been better I think but still not great.

Diving tackle is a great skill but I personally believe that it's only good on "big boys" such as black orcs (still waiting for a double on mine) as to use it optimally you have to go to contact, which isn't great with an AV7 player.

So if you don't get any doubles or stat increases, what's left? Well, Catch and Diving Catch. People said in another thread that it was odd to give Catch or Diving Catch to a Norse runner (which are now called catchers by the way), but as skill #3 or #4 I don't see anything better to give.

I also advocated giving Strip Ball to a Norse runner in a past thread but it doesn't seem to be very popular. I think that the +1MA, dodge and dauntless give plenty of reasons to give Strip Ball to a runner instead of a lineman; and I've found it very effective to use a runner with Strip Ball as last defender deep down the pitch. It's been argued that it isn't as effective on an AG3 player as it's hard for him to pick up the ball afterwards and that's true, but as long as you prevent the opponent from scoring that's good enough for me.

So to summarize I would develop them that way:
Runner 1: dodge, sure hands, side-step, catch, diving tackle
Runner 2: dodge, strip ball, catch, side-step, diving tackle

What are your opinions?

I guess that Carnis would say drop Runner 2 and only go as far as dodge & sure hands on the first then stop scoring with him to develop the ST-access players; I think that this is perfectly valid but I like to use the thrower in a Norse team and to have the potential for a passing game - I think that you win more games that way but maybe I'm wrong on this...

Fend Fend Fend!

It would be my second skill on these guys easy. You should have it right across the board on all your linesmen anyway.

And I wouldn't forego guard on doubles either. If he is going to be your main ball handler then guard really helps your other players block him free if your opponent blitzes a cage corner and swamps the guy. And if Diving Tackle works on goblins, skinks and snots it sure as hell can work on a ST3 player too!

Gerard wrote:Fend Fend Fend!

This forum has convinced me that Fend is good as a first skill on Norse linesmen (I previously preferred Tackle first) but on a runner isn't it a waste to give both side-step AND fend? It's like giving block and wrestle or catch and diving catch to the same player, I think it's too much to use two skills just on positioning isn't it? I'd consider giving fend instead of side-step but both I'm not sure, and side-step is better on a catcher especially if you plan to eventually give him diving tackle...

Dodge fend sure feet

narg wrote:

Gerard wrote:Fend Fend Fend!

This forum has convinced me that Fend is good as a first skill on Norse linesmen (I previously preferred Tackle first) but on a runner isn't it a waste to give both side-step AND fend? It's like giving block and wrestle or catch and diving catch to the same player, I think it's too much to use two skills just on positioning isn't it? I'd consider giving fend instead of side-step but both I'm not sure, and side-step is better on a catcher especially if you plan to eventually give him diving tackle...

Side-step and fend have some solid synergy. In the sense that often you can step off of all threats, and even if a runner gets blitzed the blitzer won't be able to mark them without a dodge (or at least a GFI). In short it gives you control over your players post block movement AND your opponents.

They also do different things. Fend protects against PO, Frenzy, and opponents following up to cancel assists, which SS doesn't do. And SS lets you play with sideline fun, get snuggly with their ball carrier, and set up crazy chainpush outcomes while Fend still puts you in the crowd or off on your own in the field.

On doubles I have enjoyed guard. It goes well with sidestep and blodge in that you can do some very annoying things indeed to spoil your opponents fun if they don't get your guy down. Sidestep also gives you those placement options you could take with a guard player without it, but wouldn't because of crowdpush, chainpush, or chainblock concerns. And I find Norse really like having more guard. Either for just having more of it, or being free to do other things with the S skill players.

There's a pretty good chance you'll get a double/Stat within three skill rolls, and runners are somewhat vulnerable.

What I'm saying is that worrying about a third normal skill in a row may not be a bridge you have to cross often. But I think sure feet might be the most tempting. Of course tempting you to your doom is something sure feet is all too good at.

Speaking as an opponent of the Norse, I would say that Jump Up is a strong candidate for an early skill choice (second?) on the Runners. I have seen is used very effectively in tournaments.

With 4 J-Up players, you make life difficult for your opponent when you are prone (for example, he cannot easily form a cage corner next to you) and you also greatly incrase your scoring and blitzing threats (Dodge+J-Up = 7-9 squares of movement from prone). The general increase in mobility is valuable in itself.

I am considering trying out this system next season (soon - my first foray with Norse for ages).

All the best.

Smeborg wrote:Speaking as an opponent of the Norse, I would say that Jump Up is a strong candidate for an early skill choice (second?) on the Runners. I have seen is used very effectively in tournaments.

With 4 J-Up players, you make life difficult for your opponent when you are prone (for example, he cannot easily form a cage corner next to you) and you also greatly incrase your scoring and blitzing threats (Dodge+J-Up = 7-9 squares of movement from prone). The general increase in mobility is valuable in itself.

I am considering trying out this system next season (soon - my first foray with Norse for ages).

All the best.

You've seen jump up with Norse or other teams? On orc blitzers it's brilliant.

However once MB starts becoming plentiful AV7 Norse that go down tend to stay down or head to the dugout, and if they'd get in the way of a cage they become foul magnets where again AV7 is bad news.

The point being the marginal benifit of jump up is lower the worse the players AV is, and Norse have it pretty bad. Jump up works on zerkers because it combos well with PO which always just places you prone (and usually in a position postion somewhat protected from dirty players).



One other thing, I'm normally not a fan of pro at all, because the risk of a turnover is just too high so I'd rather just use a TRR. I could see re-rolling 2D blocks, but despite the lower odds, that's going to cause some turnovers every so often.

However dauntless is one of the few dice rolls you can fail without causing a turnover. Giving you the option to pro the dauntless roll, and still use a TRR on the 1d or defenders choice block if pro doesn't work out. And it's just a nice skill to have around for odd little rolls during your opponents turn, or when you've already used a TRR during your current turn.

I'd totally consider Jump Up as a #3 skill, an alternative to Fend. With Blodge and SS, people will be loath to hit him, despite being AV7 @ 150k.

mattgslater wrote:I'd totally consider Jump Up as a #3 skill, an alternative to Fend. With Blodge and SS, people will be loath to hit him, despite being AV7 @ 150k.

You say things like that a lot. But do you, personally, find yourself not taking shots at opposing players because they have skills like that?

Maybe I just haven't run into it enough, or my opponents haven't been good enough, or they haven't had the skills on enough AV9 or S4 players as opposed to AV7 one with S3 or S2, but I haven't found myself passing up on too many blocks because of blodge/SS. I can't think of a single instance off the top of my head. I'll grant that it may change my order of operations in that I might move my ball carrier before throwing the block and maybe alter where I put a guy or two. But by the end of my turn I'll have taken the block.

You have to support him... but yeah, if you don't let your opponent hit him with Tackle, and you force him to burn actions to get 2d, the math works strongly in your favor with him. Your Block opponent gets 11 pows (5 or 6 carry little to no action cost, 5 are breaks, and 0-1 is a failed JU, kind of like a stun), 9 nothings, 15 pushes (your choice) and a skull. Is that worth 2 actions? Since you can be pushed or maybe even powed into position with SS, it's only "worth it" to hit him if you use him as a marker on AG≤3 players. The trick is in positioning him right. Fend as a #3 over Jump Up is just as reasonable, though, as it prevents Piling On and Frenzy, and will cut into the damage he takes (and make him a better marker).

mattgslater wrote:You have to support him... but yeah, if you don't let your opponent hit him with Tackle, and you force him to burn actions to get 2d, the math works strongly in your favor with him. Your Block opponent gets 11 pows (5 or 6 carry little to no action cost, 5 are breaks, and 0-1 is a failed JU, kind of like a stun), 9 nothings, 15 pushes (your choice) and a skull. Is that worth 2 actions? Since you can be pushed or maybe even powed into position with SS, it's only "worth it" to hit him if you use him as a marker on AG≤3 players. The trick is in positioning him right. Fend as a #3 over Jump Up is just as reasonable, though, as it prevents Piling On and Frenzy, and will cut into the damage he takes (and make him a better marker).

Subtle difference between what I asked and what you answered.

What I asked was if YOU find yourself passing on blocking on opponents player during a turn just because they have sidestep and/or jump up, when you otherwise would have made the block given the game situation and the other stats/skills on the respective players.

I'm not trying to get you to say sidestep is a bad skill, because there's a pretty good chance the square you'd choose and the square they choose with sidestep are different, you might not get a chain block you'd have normally gotten, and jump up is just a periodically useful skill to have. So on and so forth.

But do you find yourself just leaving an otherwise desireable block on the table?

sunnyside wrote:What I asked was if YOU find yourself passing on blocking on opponents player during a turn just because they have sidestep and/or jump up, when you otherwise would have made the block given the game situation and the other stats/skills on the respective players.... But do you find yourself just leaving an otherwise desireable block on the table?

What's a desirable block? If you've got a 2d block in front of you, and there's no strategic or tactical consideration that says otherwise, you should take it. Sometimes, SS is such a consideration. Sometimes, though, you don't so much "have a block" as "have an action" that could be a block, particularly with AG4 players. Or you have two ways in and one of them might be guarded by a player like this. In cases like those, the presence of a defensive skill suite does play strongly into the equation.

mattgslater wrote: What's a desirable block?

We're talking about Norse here so I'd say that any block is a desirable block? ;o)

More seriously, I think I'd refrain from throwing an easy block if the target were a side-stepper only if as a result he would be in contact with my ball-carrier; and maybe that even then I would still do it to do a chain-block with the ball-carrier himself if I have time to score and he is otherwise in a secure position. With my Norse I find that the main issue re a side-stepping opponent is (again) a backfiring frenzy as he can lure you in a 2d-against spot or on the side of the pitch.

To go back on topic, if people are advocating Jump Up and Pro for a norse runner then it looks like there really isn't much to give them so Strip Ball and Catch don't look that bad after all! Strip Ball and Catch proved to be game winners for me many times; when you have to do a desperate pass on turn 8 to win and you have no re-rolls left, Catch is great; Strip Ball might not be useful in every game but even assuming it is useful in only one game out of four, it is then a game changer. And everybody doesn't have a blodge sure hands player - many coaches prefer to have only one Sure Hands player and if he got killed in a past game or if you just took him out then suddenly your Strip Ball player looks a whole lot more threatening. And for teams like lizardmen it's just really hard to get one Sure Hands in the first place. In the undead teams Sure Hands usually goes to ghouls but they tend to die fast.

My personal opinion is that Pro is good on Loners only while Jump Up, like Diving Tackle, is a strength skill masquerading as an agility skill because it is best suited to high AV players. To take the example to extremes I think that Jump Up is useless on snotlings as they tend to go off the pitch as soon as they go down so you're lucky if you use that skill even once a game.

Re Guard on runners, indeed it's useful to blitz opponents off the runner but in the three games or so I played with a Guard runner this happened only once so it looks like you get much less mileage out of it than say Guard on an ulfwerener. Or maybe it's just my way of playing the team...

I did think Dodge/SS is the way to go too, but nowdays I'm in the Dodge/Fend camp.

So I'd go Dodge/Fend/Sure hands..

Fend keeps your guy alive, prevents frenzy, prevents MB/PO, and if not facing grab makes you able to leave TZ of tentacle players and S4 players who just blocked you on a push without rolling dodges..

The downside of fend is, it has no synergy with diving tackle, where as dodge/SS makes it almost a nobrainer 3rd skill.

Guard is for me a nobrainer pick on the double. They already get blodge, they already took fend, they are your team's most resilient players.. Lack of guard is what kills you versus AV9 teams, and you already do well against AG4 teams with MB/PO/Frenzy.

I dont know where the pro votes come from..

Carnis wrote:I dont know where the pro votes come from..

This is one of the few pieces that gets real value out of Pro. He rolls dice for so many different purposes, like Dauntless and catching and blocking and GFI. I'm not advocating it, really, but of all the places you could put such a skill....