Talk Fantasy Football

So I'm getting tired of my habit of playing teams prone to dying, and would like to play some bloodbowl where I can lose a game without losing a chunk of the team on a bad day.

To that end I think it's time to bring out the orcs.

The issue is that looking at the league leaders, about a third are the teams that can bring claw. Claw spam doesn't seem very common. However what is common is to see a "super slayer" player. I imagine this is a natural result of blitzing with the player most likely to have an effect, so you blitz with the first warrior to get block, and than you keep blitzing when they have mighty blow, which speeds up their cas, and pretty soon they've got PO and claw while most of the team only has a single skill or two.

So how might you buid or play a team differently than standard playbook Orcs? Maybe give a lineorc sneaky git to be followed with DP? Guardspam to try and lock 'em down? Grab to try and facilitate the teamfoul? Etc.

Or just focus on the slayery fundamentals and figure I can keep pace with their slayer by POing the AV8 or worse that all the claw capable teams can't avoid putting on the field somewhere.

Still, it would be nice to remove those pieces. For one thing they're a whole lot of TV on one piece, and after they're gone the Orc AV9 and skills seem to have a big advantage over the rest of those teams.

IMHO just go for the standard block & guard a claw weilding slayer is going to struggle to get a positive dice blocks against that many assissts.
In my experaince the claw slayer is usually a ST3 piece so its going to struggle even with a light sprinkling of guard.

Build an all-round team that is good at moving and attacking the ball. Slayer teams are usually weak in these departments.

Fend is a good defensive skill against Frenzy and P-On. It is rare to see Claw players with either P-On/J-Naut or Frenzy/J-Naut - it just requires too many skill advances. Fend will increase the mobility of your ST3 players, further improving your team's ability to move and attack the ball.

2 Babes are an outstanding inducement against slayer teams (worth way more than 100,000).

Take Bribes as inducements when appropriate (for targetted fouling).

Lastly, consider Dodge as the standard doubles upgrade. Most Claw players do not have Tackle (Chaos Dwarfs excepted).

Hope that helps.

Concerned with Claw hunters on non-Slayer teams? Dirty Player, at least a little Guard, and then lots of Guard/Stand Firm/Mighty Blow to taste.

arthurinkpen wrote:In my experaince the claw slayer is usually a ST3 piece so its going to struggle even with a light sprinkling of guard.

In my experience the block from a blitzing slayer (whom we talk about here) is often a ST4 player.
- Chaos team only have ST4 (or ST6!) on a blitz, and they are the main provider of claw.
- Nurgle only develop Claws on ST4 as well
- Norse only develop Claws on ST5 albeit only one

You're correct however if you're facing:
- Skaven develop claws on ST3 (or ST2, occasionally on ST5)
- Necromantic stick to claws on ST3
- chaos dwarfs have claws on ST3 but often a lot of guard around as well
- Chaos Pact/underworld also have claws on ST3 but usually develop horns quickly.

Take two Throwers, a Lino, and either a Lino or a Gob. Play a tempo game.

Focus on individual slayers on non-slayer teams.

Don't build slayer. Orcs make good killers, but tend to lose killer-on-killer battles. The way to handle killer teams is to punch them in the mouth, yes, but then also to hold your ground and build a situational advantage by not getting pushed.

Mighty Blow and SF/SS are top-three skills for ALL FOUR Blitzers. Differentiation mostly involves other slayer/square-counter skills like Tackle, Guard and (especially) Frenzy. You have nine blockers/blitzers; the 'ardest all-around front in the game. Don't take a single ball skill on any of 'em. Let 'em score some, yes, but offensive skills are for Throwers.

If you really want a counter to a single MB/Claw slayer, then commit 2-3 players to "stymie play", with Wrestle/Fend or Block/Fend with a blitzer. Just don't go too far or you will not win many games:

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=team& ... _id=630229

In my experience most killers are S4 though, either beastmen/pestigors or chaos warriors or pact big guys. Only skaven, chaos dwarves & underworld make S3 slayers..

I really don't like Fend on Orcs, except Throwers and Linos. Block/Fend Throwers are okay, i suppose. Wrestle/Fend Linos are harder to get. Most of the time, I'd rather keep my BOBs/Blitzers/Troll in base-to-base against non-PO players. Even a "slayer" team usually only has two or three PO guys.

Seriously, though, the way around individual slayers is to take them out and foul them.

Actually how "solidified" are the tactics for Orcs? Is there the One True Build out there somewhere?

Though one particular thing I'm wondering about is Throwers. They seem to be the weak link in the Orc chain. I could see using one. Av8 or Av9 doesn't matter much in the middle of a cage.

However if you put two out there, than you've essentially got a squishy overpriced lineorc on your hands. But if you only have one, than unless you take kick off return on them you'll be picking up the ball with other players part of the time or making GFIs.

That and they're slower than the blitzers. However with experience I'm finding myself loath to take brawly positionals out of the melee and into the middle of a cage, it feels too much like playing a man down or at least KOed and replaced by a lineman. So I'm inclined to take one.

Also, I'm surprised to find Carnis advocating slayer nurgle and stymie Orcs

sunnyside wrote:Though one particular thing I'm wondering about is Throwers. They seem to be the weak link in the Orc chain.

Although superficially they appear weak, in practice I find Orc Throwers to be one of the strongest parts of the Team. They give an already strong bash team a good passing game, meaning that when they are in a tight spot, the Orcs can recover the ball to safety and/or score from long range. This is a very annoying characteristic of the team (I speak as an opponent in both leagues and tournaments).

The idea of a slightly dysfunctional MA5 Thrower also has a lot of charm. How can you resist that?

All the best.

sunnyside wrote:Actually how "solidified" are the tactics for Orcs? Is there the One True Build out there somewhere?

NO! In fact, Orcs are the one team of all 24 with the most different competitive options.

Though one particular thing I'm wondering about is Throwers.

I really want to address this, but I have to go. I'll get back to it tonight. I think Orc Throwers are the real difference-makers on the team, even if they're not the best players or bargains. I always start one, and if I'm bringing a newbie team into a veteran league, I'll start two and rely on Extra Training.

Until then: I was the guest on Three Die Block last week. The first hour is about Orcs.

http://pseudoradio.blogspot.com/2010/11 ... timed.html

I actually garbled my message on Thrower progression, but not on Thrower utility.

T1: Accurate, KOR, Safe Throw
T2: Block, Fend, Kick or Leader, Block, Fend, depending on how your players develop.

Doubles on rookie makes him T2, and gets him Dodge. Doubles on T1 at 16 SPP becomes Strong Arm, and replaces KOR. Take +MA/AG/ST whenever you can!

Carnis wrote:If you really want a counter to a single MB/Claw slayer, then commit 2-3 players to "stymie play", with Wrestle/Fend or Block/Fend with a blitzer. Just don't go too far or you will not win many games:

I didnt really advocate going there, but if that was your problem then the solution is 1-2 wrestle/fend + a dp, just adding emphasis to make it more clear.

My concept on Orcs:

1) This is not the only successful way to think of or run Orc teams.

2) The main feature of Orcs is the "Power Nine" players, who are bigger, stronger and tougher than their counterparts on almost every team. Build at least eight of them into stoppers or killers.

3) The asset that distinguishes Orcs from other heavy teams is their ability to throw the ball. Build one as a retriever and one as a runner or Leader vehicle.

4) Positioning skills and damage skills rule the day. Except on Throwers, you should focus on those. Skills to take are Block, Stand Firm, Mighty Blow, a little Guard, Frenzy and Tackle. Side Step on doubles (Block for the Troll) on non-SF players. Everything else is secondary.

5) As fast as possible, get the keys to the Half-Ziggurat:
Inverted Wing: Blitzer with SS, Blitzer with Frenzy.
Strong Points (line-ends, strong midfield): 2x BOB, Troll, all with SF and preferably Block.
Standard Wing: Blitzer with SF, Blitzer w/Guard.
Nose: BOB or Troll with Guard.

6) If you win the coin toss, kick first. Your #1 objective is never, ever to open a meaningful hole except on stupid luck (like a pow on a half-die block against a Block/SF player). Shutout defense is the key to rapid development.

7) Build to defend, defend to build.

On defensive tempo, score in 4, or hate for 8.

9) On offense, if you don't have a lead, grind, grind, grind. If you do have a lead, score, score, score.

Matt,

I am a regular listener to 3DBlock, and when I heard that you were the guest I knew I was in for some tactical talk way above my level, and I was not disappointed

I was hoping however, that you could go over the point you made about using a Grab on the offensive LOS to chain push for an extra block with your troll? I feel like I am missing a fundamental part of this situation, because I simply can not get my head around it.

Could you possibly explain it in simple terms for people like me?

Page 29 of the Nurgle thread.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=29697&start=420

The key is that the Grab player can push the defender into an unoccupied space on your side of the line, frequently the "nose" or "zero" position on the center of the field. You can leave a space open for this, or you can follow on an earlier block. If you leave a Frenzy player one square behind scrimmage, diagonally from the Grabber's side, you can use him to push twice (game it out carefully; there are different techniques required for lines with positioning skills), each time shoving your own guy deeper into the backfield.