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Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 12:39 pm
by narg
Smeborg wrote:
If you search, you will find diagrams for theoretical one-turn-scores by such teams as Norse, CDs and Dwarfs. These are reliant on incorrect set-ups by the defender, IIRC.
Can someone post a link or show how a one turn touchdown is done with the Norse? I went through a lot of old posts but all the links seem to be broken.
I tried to figure it out but I only found a way with 11 players, which unless you get a touch-back can't work.
And I'm talking about a regular team here, not a team optimized for it with Grab, Sprint, Side-Step etc...
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:53 pm
by mubo
Try this T8 of 2nd half. (click on replay link)
http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match ... id=2290112
Not norse, but nurgle. General principle more important though.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 2:55 pm
by mattgslater
I want to say it was browwnrob who wrote an article on this a long time ago.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:20 pm
by sunnyside
narg wrote:
And I'm talking about a regular team here, not a team optimized for it with Grab, Sprint, Side-Step etc...
Note that sidestep is a fairly common skill for Norse to have.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:47 pm
by Carnis
I think you need javabb installed to look at old Fumbbl replays
.
This is the setup in that replay:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- 11 -- -- -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- Ll Ll Ll -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|N1 -- N6 B8 Bc N7 R5|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- R2 R3 Rx R4 --|-- -- -- --
+ thrower back
N1 blitzes from 11, & Bc (ballcarrier) is pushed forward 1 square.
n1 = first blitzer
R2 = 2nd blocker
R3 = 3rd blocker, etc..
Rx = mover
Bc = ballcarrier, there's also a thrower down field.
New norse with MA7 runners can do it with better odds, needing only 4 pushes. But what happens in that replay:
Blitz1:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- Ll Ll Bc --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- N6 Ll B8 N7 R5|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- R2 R3 Rx R4 --|-- -- -- --
Block2:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 -- Bc --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- Ll Ll B8 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- N6 r2 Ll N7 R5|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- R3 Rx R4 --|-- -- -- --
Block3:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 -- Bc --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- Ll Ll B8 N7|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- N6 r2 r3 Ll R5|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Rx R4 --|-- -- -- --
Block4:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 B8 Bc --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- Ll Ll Ll N7|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- N6 r2 r3 r4 R5|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Rx -- --|-- -- -- --
Block5:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Bc -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 B8 Ll --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- Ll Ll r5 N7|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- N6 r2 r3 r4 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Rx -- --|-- -- -- --
Block6:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Bc B8 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 Ll Ll --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- n6 Ll r5 N7|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- r2 r3 r4 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Rx -- --|-- -- -- --
Block7:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- Bc -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Ll B8 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 Ll n7 --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- n6 Ll r5 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- r2 r3 r4 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- -- Rx -- --|-- -- -- --
Move1:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- Bc -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- rx Ll B8 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 Ll n7 --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- n6 Ll r5 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- r2 r3 r4 --|-- -- -- --
Block8:
Code: Select all
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- Bc -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- Ll -- -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- rx b8 -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- n1 Ll n7 --|-- -- -- --
-- LL OO SS|-- -- -- n6 Ll r5 --|-- -- -- --
-- -- -- --|-- -- -- r2 r3 r4 --|-- -- -- --
And there, after 9 activations and 8 pushes, the ball carrier is in position within 8 squares of the TD-line =). I'm glad I barely ever need to do that (I've never got a norse-OTT done, as far as I can recall).
That's not the only way to do it, and there's almost always a way, but as you see.. it's horribly unlikely to work with AG3 and low MA teams.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:56 pm
by Coach
While not Norse specific I've got a step by step Play Creator article showing how it can be done with Move six players.
http://bbtactics.com/mv6-one-turn-touchdown/
Having Frenzy on your players makes it easier as well.
It isn't really a situation that will come up very often to realistically be able to do it though.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:02 pm
by Der_Doodle
Just even if it is theoreticly possible to make a OTT with a MV 6 Player DONT count on it.
For example on an orc team with a good number of guards to make all needed blocks mostly 3d Blocks (and with 5 S4+ Players) the chance to make all needed Blocks with no too early knockdown or skull is slightly less 30% if the mostly pushed End has Dodge. (Without Dodge its just around 6%)
Add to this a successfull Pickup + Handover/Pass into a player standing in a TZ (the running player is in no point of the complete sheme free of TZ's except right before running but then you have a range issue with the pass) That success with AG 3 Players is without TRR around 40% roughly.
So all in all (without calculating with TRR left at Turn
your Chance of doing a OTT is ~10% with an dodge enemy (or barely 2.5% without an dodge enemy)
Just some points to it.
The OTT actions become alot more likely if you have a player who can run 9 instead of 8 squares (MV7 or MV6+sprint)
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:56 pm
by txapo
If your spainsh skills are fine, in the spanish forum we have them all coleected for all the teams: (even if you don't speak spanish no probs as the grafics speak for themselves).
For norses as you can use frenzy the chaos dwarves one is easiest you are looking for.
http://www.bloodbowlforo.org/phpBB3/vie ... 17&t=11609
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 2:29 pm
by narg
Carnis wrote:
And there, after 9 activations and 8 pushes, the ball carrier is in position within 8 squares of the TD-line =). I'm glad I barely ever need to do that (I've never got a norse-OTT done, as far as I can recall).
The chances of success are lower than 1% if I'm not mistaken? The chance of getting a pushed back on a 2D block is 55% but eight in a row borders on the impossible; and that's without taking into account the hand-off / pass and the GFI.
Isn't there an easier way with Frenzy? Surely it can greatly reduce the amount of blocks you have to roll?
Txapo, could you post that here? I don't speak Spanish and a login is needed to go on your website...
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:28 pm
by Coach
Using Frenzy means you have to roll the same number of blocks, it just uses one less player as your Frenzy player does two of those blocks.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:03 pm
by txapo
narg wrote:
Isn't there an easier way with Frenzy? Surely it can greatly reduce the amount of blocks you have to roll?
Txapo, could you post that here? I don't speak Spanish and a login is needed to go on your website...
yep is easier with frenzy than without.
Log in there are many interesting things to see even if you don't speak spanish. And not I can't post it here as the Img are too big for this site and in the spainsh one we got biger size img,... As well I haven't got the author permision to do so.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:15 pm
by mattgslater
Grab >>> Frenzy for this. But Norse have no access to Grab.
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:25 pm
by voyagers_uk
erm.... Ulf + Troll = Grab access....
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:26 pm
by voyagers_uk
+berserkers for that matter matt...
Re: Norse - one turn touchdown
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 7:29 pm
by Smeborg
Rules of thumb for one-turn-scoring:
MA9 (or MA8 + Sprint) = relatively easy (2 chain pushes required). WEs, Skaven.
MA8 = reasonable chance (3 chain pushes required). All the MA8 teams come with skills which help the one-turn-score (ball movement skills, or Stunty, or Frenzy). HE, PE, Humie, Lizzie, Necro.
MA7 = some chance if you have at least 2 Frenzied players (4 chain pushes required). DEs, Norse.
Throw Team Mate + Right Stuff = always possible ('Flings, Gobbos, Ogres, Orcs, Underworld, C-Pact).
MA6 = no chance in practice, even with Frenzy, although possible in theory, especially if you get some help from your opponent!
Note that many teams require just one upgrade on a player (e.g. +MA on a Dwarf Runner) to give them a viable chance of a one-turn-score. I have never seen or heard of an MA6 team achieving the feat in actual league or tournament play. Chaos Dwarfs have a Frenzied player (the Minotard), and players with MA6 + Sprint/S-Feet (equivalent to MA7). This creates chances in theory, but not in practice (mainly because the Bull Centaurs are AG2).
Hope that helps.