Penetrating the Nurgle I-Zig

[Greedy_Snitch]

I would like to have some input on how to break my lineup on a Nurgle team I play. On defense, I use inverted ziggurath formation:

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With the following positionals:

Left Wing: Pest w Block, Sidestep
Left Flank, Pest w Wrestle, Frenzy
Left Midfielder: Rotter w Block, Tackle
Left Strongpoint: NW w Block, StandFirm, Tentacles

Right Strongpoint: Beast, w Strand Firm, Break Tackle, -1 AV
Right Midfielder: Rotter w Block
Right Flank: Pest w Block
Right Wing: Pest w Block, Sidestep

Left Edge on LoS: NW w Block, Stand Firm
Nose: NW w Block
Right Edge on LoS: NW w Block, Stand Firm

TV 1700, 2 RR’s

Starting off with High Elfs (since that was my last opponent) and say you have about the same TV as my team, how would you try to penetrate my line if you were the receiving team?

[mattgslater]

I wouldn't. I'd form up behind the LOS and hope for a mistake. If I had some Guard, I'd take a crack at trying to get a knockdown on the line in hopes of an injury to open the situation up (or at least to free up a chance to push the noseguard out of the way); once you've got Guard on the nose, that is a failing strategy, and I'd just stay the heck away. I'd also take a potshot blitz on your Tackler. Which is to say your defense is pretty much doing what it's supposed to do... frighteningly well.

I might try to break out with a Leap Catcher, get some distance on your flanker Pests, and just shoot for the 2TTD, relying on Safe Throw (much safer with an Accurate Thrower). Barring Leap, I might also blitz the wing and trust in Dodge (not happening if I don't get a knockdown or Wrestle result on the Blitz). Still, this has to be considered a defensive success, because the offensive strategy plays straight into the 2-1 grind and would force my High Elves to bust a cage (that and the fact that any failure is a death sentence). One offensive advantage to splitting a guy downfield is that you need then to keep a safety roving, and then you have to protect your front with 10 men instead of 11, somewhat a taller order (though still very feasible).

[Ullis]

I'd blitz either of the side stepping goats and go through the hole there. I'd probably look to do it with a wrestle player to maximise chances of getting him down.

That, or hit a warrior in the middle. Most elves have at least one Guard to give you chances on both los warriors.

[TuernRedvenom]

Use a wrestler to 2-die hit the pest on the other side from where the beast is. If he goes down (75% chance) send some guys through deep to spread out the Nurgle team in both depth and width. Then keep them spread and wait for an opening. Depends a lot on the skills the HE team has and how many turns there are left in the half. First turn of the half you don't need to force a breakthrough.
But HE vs Nurgle is always difficult for the HE, even without skills.

[mattgslater]

Yeah, the wing is pretty solid, but not perfect. A Wrestle result does give free sideline movement to two guys, assuming you're blitzing with guys from outside the wing. That's not enough to build a formation (they have to get four squares off scrimmage before they can try to move to the interior and guys who don't start out split wide won't have the MA to pull it off), but you're probably giving up a 2TTD every other drive, about as good as it gets on defense vs. elves.

This is an argument for Tackle or Tents next on the two Flanker Pests... I'm not sure it's a good one....

[TuernRedvenom]

Another interesting one vs elf teams that try to penetrate is to set up a wall. Does nothing against leap but can force 3+ Dodge rolls at least.

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The weakness here is in the centre, this is held by the tentacles, if the beast goes down it's probably open. But it'll take him a lot of resources which will all get trapped if the beast gets back up next turn.
But even if the beast stays up it's still just a 3+, 2+ Dodge to get in the backfield.

[mattgslater]

Holding out elven defenders is the primary objective on paper, but it's actually sort of a secondary objective. The real goals of defensive setup are:

1) Prohibit downfield formations from forming (solitary breakaways are okay if you respond to them; thank you, Horns)
2) Force die rolls and possibly committed actions that are suboptimal if no TD is generated
3) Prevent stalling except in the offense's backfield (maybe a subset of 1)
4) Stay in position to respond to whatever the offense does, without breaking ranks
5) Don't expose yourself to injury

I really don't like Rotters on the LOS vs. elves. Two Rotters flanking an AV-busted Beast is 220k (elf-like) of AV8 (also elf-like). And if you go down men against an elf team, you can pack it in.

[TuernRedvenom]

I agree, but if you need to stop the 2-turner this setup is more interesting IMO.

[mattgslater]

You mean if you score in 7 turns? Yeah, maybe, if you're facing a Wizard. Better to stall one more turn, or to score with enough time on the clock to rinse/repeat. In the second half, that Wizard will be used to stop your score no matter when you try, as 2TTDs vs. Nurgle aren't nearly as reliable as fireball/cagebreaks.

Even then, all that Stand Firm and Side Step means you can run your defense a bit more spread out on the interior and make it even harder.

[TuernRedvenom]

You mean if you score in 7 turns? Yeah, maybe, if you're facing a Wizard. Better to stall one more turn, or to score with enough time on the clock to rinse/repeat. In the second half, that Wizard will be used to stop your score no matter when you try, as 2TTDs vs. Nurgle aren't nearly as reliable as fireball/cagebreaks.

Of course you'd prefer to score on turn 8. But sometimes you're forced to give away 2 turns anyway. I'd rather put one on the scoreboard then risk losing the ball (I've seen many people take their stall too far and pay for it).

Even then, all that Stand Firm and Side Step means you can run your defense a bit more spread out on the interior and make it even harder.

How so? Assuming the opponent has at least 1 guard and no STR 4?

[Greedy_Snitch]

I really don't like Rotters on the LOS vs. elves. Two Rotters flanking an AV-busted Beast is 220k (elf-like) of AV8 (also elf-like). And if you go down men against an elf team, you can pack it in.

Updated roster at the beginning with -AV on Beast. Thanks Matt.

[mattgslater]

You mean if you score in 7 turns? Yeah, maybe, if you're facing a Wizard. Better to stall one more turn, or to score with enough time on the clock to rinse/repeat. In the second half, that Wizard will be used to stop your score no matter when you try, as 2TTDs vs. Nurgle aren't nearly as reliable as fireball/cagebreaks.

Of course you'd prefer to score on turn 8. But sometimes you're forced to give away 2 turns anyway. I'd rather put one on the scoreboard then risk losing the ball (I've seen many people take their stall too far and pay for it).

Point taken. But even then, that's an occasional use thing.

Even then, all that Stand Firm and Side Step means you can run your defense a bit more spread out on the interior and make it even harder.

How so? Assuming the opponent has at least 1 guard and no STR 4?

T = Tents/SF player
S = SF Warrior
W = Warrior
s = SS Pestigor
p = Pestigor
r = Rotter

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It's possible to 2d the SS'ers, but Wrestle is no help because down-in-square is a failure. Also, lining a man square up on the SS Pest means more dodging. You could also move the p Pestigors inside one and swap the SS'ers and SF'ers to get an even stronger formation, though that does expose the Tents warrior on the wing to a 2d hit, and also means your Beast isn't moving.

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I kind of prefer the first one for general purpose defense (not as much as I like the I-Zig, but good as a change-up), and the second one for T7 defense.

[Aliboon]

I'm not sure if I can see the diagram right, but if i needed a 2 turner, i'd hit the Left Midfielder: (Rotter w Block, Tackle with the blitz.) and run through. Even if i didn't hit him I'd still only need 1 dodge right? (no reroll though) The DP would make life difficult catching things though, but when I play Nurgle with a speed team, I try and do my passing so it isn't affected, tie up the beast/tentacle players and cage up in their half. Personally I'd move everyone up a sq.

Nurgle is an odd team, cos normally being bash, you almost "want" them to score easily, so you get 6 + 8 turns to get 2 tds. But Nurgle isn't great on offence, but pretty good on defence, so it is nice to get the ball in their half to make the turnover TD that much easier to get.

[mattgslater]

EDIT: I misunderstood you, Aliboon. I've fixed my post to account for it, by removing the first paragraph.

Aliboon's post may be an argument for moving the safeties up to the -2 row, so as to form a wall with the Rotters and make it a four-midfielder setup (which the I-Zig really is anyway). Given the Block/SF Warriors on the LOS, you can probably shut out the interior routes entirely.

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Tentacles midfielders represented with T.
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Heck, given your SF ends, you can even move your Tents midfielders and your flankers up a square and your 3-tech midfielders back to the safety row (use Pests there, and Rotters on the flanks). Normally that's dangerous, but Nurgle vs. speed is probably an exception, especially given that insane load of positioning skills and the opponent's total inability to generate backfield chains off your (disturbing) LOS.

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If you go this route, then take Tackle next on your SS Pests, because 3+/2+ skilled is like a 2+ uncovered roll, and 3+/3+/2+ isn't that much worse if skilled, though it's scary on a rookie. The Rotters on the flanks are kind of Wrestle-proof, but a pow will ruin your day. Fend Rotters would be a nice alternative/combo. This also forces the opponent to use a Guard player to blitz if he wants to go in via the wings, and that's an oogie place to put a Guard guy, 'cause he'll get surfed.

Note that this shallow defense is nigh-invulnerable to 1TTD attempts. Not that this is all that valuable, because you probably wouldn't set up that way on T8, but still, breakaways are nearly impossible.

[B SIDE]

It may be good to book all of these plays. Presenting a coach with a variety of good formations will keep him guessing, and maybe guessing wrong.

But I'll tell you what: If I played in a league against any team that had this many positioning skills, I'd have at least one blitzer with Juggernaut.