Talk Fantasy Football

Ogres are popular in our friendly tabletop league, however, I observe that most coaches struggle with both play and development. I had a go with them last year, much helped by having played against well coached Ogres in a tournament. I found them to be a lot of fun in a league, and (slightly) better than they are cracked up to be.

My take on the team is that all initial skills should be devoted to moving, attacking, holding or protecting the ball (all things that the team is bad at initially). Blocking is something that the starting team is sufficiently good at, although blitzing (which is good for moving and attacking the ball) needs attention. Simply re-inforcing the blocking game is a trap, I suggest. So:

Ogres go: B-Tackle, J-Naut

Snots go: D-Tackle (few will get more than one skill)

I always try to pick up the ball with an Ogre first, only if that fails and the ball is under pressure (it usually is) do I pick it up with a Snot. Often, I think, it is worth picking up the ball before completing your blocks. Counter-intuitive.

Doubles is not straightforward, but I think Block is best for the Ogres, and probably for the Snots too. Once you have two or three Ogres with Block, move order seems luxurious. +AG on either player type is a boon.

I incline towards 3 Re-rolls as I think a 6 Ogre roster with 4 Re-rolls is too costly. I think you need 6 Ogres if you can get them, it's easy to have (say) one Ogre MNG and another in the dugout. I never got beyond 5 Ogres due to attrition. 2 of the Ogres had Niggles, the main problem of the team in the long term is cumulative damage to the Ogres. Once a league is mature you spend most of your money replacing Snots, you don't have enough left over to buy Ogres. Even with 5 Ogres and 3 Re-rolls, I felt TV was on the high side, but that can't be helped. I start the roster with 3 Re-rolls (a minimum, I think), which means only 4 Ogres initially.

I took Guard as second skill on the Ogres at first, it didn't work for me, I now much prefer J-Naut. Even as third skill, I suspect positional skills like S-Firm or Grab would work better than Guard.

Since the team cannot easily hold the ball and stall, they must score as and when they can. The one-turn-score is low odds, because of the difficulty of getting the ball to the Snot on the line (especially against any opponent with Kick), and because the Re-rolls are usually blown before the end of the half. Thus for the team to win or draw games, I think they need a credible defense in terms of attacking the ball (or at least threatening to do so). B-Tackle on the Ogres does this for me. With AV9/T-Skull, they don't mind falling over, and they don't mind having a go without a Re-roll. Once the opponent realises that you're going to try this, he has to deal with the threat (or score early).

On offense, do not necessarily commit 3 Ogres to the Line of Scrimmage, if this means conceding one or both wings to the opposition. This is especially the case if you have only 4 or 5 Ogres (which will be a lot of the time). Snots can block too.

Hope that helps all you aspiring Ogre coaches out there! All the best.

I started 4 ogres and 4 re rolls, got caned. a mate did the same and came out slightly better.
Never ever EVER finish a turn with snots next to an opponent(unless you really HAVE to) Oh and fouling is your friend, so you risk a useless player getting tossed. If some fancy wardancer leaps your line and plants himself, surround him and pound,if only for the look of panic that will spread over your opponents face.

Heff - I think 4RR is one too many. If you start with 3RR, 4 Ogres and 11 Snots, things should go OK, provided you get the Apoth without losing an Ogre. Once you have the Apoth, you should (I think) buy Snots to fill the roster to 16, then buy Ogres until you have 6. Easier said than done, but that's the general direction.

I don't foul "systematically" with this team, unless I am already well up on numbers. Against targets of opportunity, such as the prone Wardancer etc., of course fouling is natural.

I've started an ogre league team with 6 ogres, 5 snots, and an apothecary. No rerolls.
Whilst I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, it does give you a good introduction to playing as ogres - you cannot rely on the rerolls when you do have them! And its also the most fun way to start the team...

I can't say how it would pan out long term, as after a brutal game against a nasty orc team the team got retired (2 ogres got -ST and another got a niggle), but I would certainly try it again (I'm a sucker for playing a risky game without rerolls...)

Smeborg wrote:Against targets of opportunity, such as the prone Wardancer etc., of course fouling is natural.

I think this line should be printed in the rulebook.

Smeborg wrote:[...] you should (I think) buy Snots to fill the roster to 16, then buy Ogres until you have 6.[..]

My objection to this approach is that, if you buy Snotlings to fill the roster, you are bloating your TV and wasting precious MVP on silly Snotlings. As for Lizardmen, you want to skill the Ogres, not the Snotlings (barring + AG or doubles, they are not worth their TV, because they are easily injured).
Instead, you want to get all the skills as soon as possible on the Ogres.
Therefore I don't suggest to buy 5 Ogres, then Snotlings, then the last Ogre, as you said. If you waste money buying Snotlings it'll take more games to buy the 6th Ogre.
My approach is saving the money (I don't hire silly Snotlings), buying the 6th Ogre as soon as possibile, and keeping 11 players in the roster (as for Lizardmen). This way you have a 54.54% chance of getting a MVP on an Ogre.
After some skills on my Ogres, I might consider buying some Snotling reserves, but in a private league it's hard to skill many Ogres.
I agree on Break Tackle, but Juggernaut works only when you blitz and doesn't cause knock down on Both Downs results (assuming you don't have Block, of course), I don't suggest to take it.
Break Tackle and Guard/Piling On is a better idea in my opinion. If an Ogre gets +1 AG Break Tackle is the obvious choice, he will become the ball carrier.
I have a Block AG 3 Ogre, and he's a great ball carrier.
As you said, it's better to use an Ogre, whenever possible, to score. This helps to get skill, and it's hard to steal the ball from an Ogre's hands.

I'm about half way through a TT League season (~10 games) with my first go at ogres. Team's at 50/50 wins:loss right now, so not too shabby given their Tier III nature. I completely feel your pain, as I've so desperately wanted to get to all six ogres as I expect the team gets much better once it's there, but despite having started with four ogres and having purchased two more I've literally never started a game with more than four ogres thanks to deaths and constant MNGs.

I agree with all of the wonderful advice above, and would re-emphasize:

Ogres: Break Tackle
Snotlings: Diving Tackle

Honestly, I see little reason to level the players beyond this first point. Both have relatively useless developmental paths without Doubles. I agree that Guard is largely useless, as you want (and need) your ogres spread out. This lets the few players on your team who can roadblock cover more ground AND it forces opponents to bring in 2-3 individual assists per ogre if they want 2-Die blocks.



Here's what I would add or disagree with:

I ALWAYS carry the ball with snotlings. I've tried to use an Ogre (or Saurus) ball-carrier, even with convenient touchbacks, and it has never ended well. The big tough guys just get bogged down too easily (and it means you lose a precious player for the blocking war, as snots aren't going to pick up the slack, which I think is the bigger problem).

Also, never throw teammate unless you are insanely desperate. Never take skills to make throw teammate better (Strong Arm, Snot w/ Catch or Sprint or Sure Feet, etc.) as it's still so incredibly crappy and unreliable. Also, even when it works, you're unlikely to attempt TTM more than once a game -- so skills devoted to it are pretty wasted.

I like four re-rolls. I commonly burn through them all. I might say that once the team had more reliability from its skills, three could be ok, except that without doubles the team doesn't gain any reliability-improving skills.



All in all, ogres are a lot of fun. They're a very tough team to play well, but when you do they can pull off wins. Nevertheless, I still think they're probably worse than Halflings and Goblins, though not sure. Especially since some bad luck on ogre injuries and you're season is pretty much down the drain.

Hi.
I'm playing in a very particular private league with only vampires, ogres, halfling and goblin teams available.

My favourite skills for snotlings are diving tackle and sure feet
My favourite for ogres are Guard in all of them as first skill, followed by Stand firm or Break Tackle as second (the other as third).
I gave Juggernaut to at least one of them as third skill after Guard and BT, and also Grab to at least another of them too (but I see it as a later skill, I prefer guard, BT, SF first, they help to disengage and to control the sidelines).


I dont have it yet, but Im thinking about Block on doubles, and perhaps one with Sure Hands if I want to have a ball carrier ogre for fun (Break Tackle Next).

Also on snotlings, block on doubles, but i always give KICK skill on the first snotling that double. The reason is, if a blitz comes, If I positioned the ball with the kick and got some luck with the throw I could be able even to score in the blitz itself.

If not, I can steal the ball sometimes and pray for my snotling to survive, or just throw one with diving tackle (remember sidestep) near the ball. If he survive the ongoing blitz by my opponent, he stays near the ball and could stall the drive and give time for my ogres.


I currently have, after 16 or so games, a 3 RR team with a kicker snotling, one level 2 ogre, four level 3 ogres, and one level 4 ogre.

I did not take piling on, but if i rebuild the team could probably build one of them without Guard, with just Juggernaut, Break Tackle, Piling on.


At the moment, I enjoy all of them with Guard. It's useful all of them have it, because there will be some turns will Bone heads, so the more Guard the better.

They also got it for fights against trolls, vampires, treemen and other ogres, so take my post as it is. My team doesn't play in a varied scenario, just those 4 races.


Ogres is my second favourite team, just right after Nurgle.

I think the hardest part of playing ogres in a league format is that they are thoroughly unforgiving if your ogres accrue any MNGs/Deaths (and out of 11 games, I've only had 1 where no ogres went MNG or worse -- Str5/AV9 is nice, but when a half-dozen players have to carry the team's burden of blocking, they're gonna get hurt). This is also much truer for ogres than any other roster out there, for three reasons:

(1) After a season playing ogres, I have little to no sympathy for players who complain when one of their four Black Orcs or one of their elven Blitzers will be MNG next game . The difference between a blitzer and a lineman are completely negligible compared to the difference between an ogre and his snotling replacement.

(2) Couple that with the fact that ogre teams' TV is usually pretty because of the high ogre cost and need for a deep bench, and the chance of inducing an ogre-ish replacement merc or star aren't great (even on a team full of rookies).

(3) Finally, most teams can manage with a 11-Person roster if they're forced to take some Journeymen for a single game or perhaps a short string of games while they save up. An ogre team, though, really suffers without a bench of at least 13-14+ players, but replacing snotlings to make sure you can field that many means you'll never have enough cash savings to round out the ogre lineup (despite the snotling's cheap cost). Nuffle help you if you have to replace one or more ogres.




As another point, ogres aren't really a bashy team (and I don't think they should be played as one). Despite the STR5 MB players, you can't win a blocking war when only five of your players can participate against eleven opponents (especially true if the opponent is a bash team and has some Block and Guard built up). Ogres are a space-controlling team--the snotlings are super mobile and the ogres are pretty darn great roadblocks. This means that grinding your opponent into the turf isn't something your team is very good at, and it certainly shouldn't be your primary strategy. Without Block and with Bonehead, trying to aggressively block at every opportunity will likely mean your positioning will crumble.

I suspect many players try to play ogres like a basher team, and this probably leads to some pretty poor performances. I think, when played as a space-controlling team, ogres can put up a reasonable fight and even surprise a few opponents.

Because of their slow development you will get inducements.

Try and aim for 2 star players: Morg and Bar'th... 8 big guys on one side, lots of mighty blow and 7 boneheads

The blodge chainsaw goblin is piles of fun as an inducement. Use him to foul.

Smeborg wrote: I always try to pick up the ball with an Ogre first, only if that fails and the ball is under pressure (it usually is) do I pick it up with a Snot. Often, I think, it is worth picking up the ball before completing your blocks. Counter-intuitive.
[...]
On offense, do not necessarily commit 3 Ogres to the Line of Scrimmage, if this means conceding one or both wings to the opposition.

I agree with nearly all the post, I just have issues with the two points above:

- At the start of a drive I like to first put two snotlings next to the ball, then throw blocks, then pick-up the ball. This way you start with the easier actions and if you have a bad turnover you still have two tackle zones on the ball. Ideally the other snotlings should be positioned in such a way that forces the opponent to blitz them to get to the ball and thanks to side-step if the snotling doesn't fall it "sticks" to the blitzer, however that's unreliable because of bonehead, which opens up gaps in your defence at unexpected places.

- On offense I like to put one ogre behind to pick up the ball, three on the LOS to throw blocks and one on a wing for a blitz. So ideally you want at least five ogres.

- On the first double on an ogre I like to take Sure Hands: my ball carrier is the first ogre to roll a double or to get a +AG. I think that Sure Hands is vital as otherwise it can be very hard to win against teams with Strip Ball. Break Tackle is definitely the most important skill and at least one Juggernaut is necessary to counter stand firm, without these skills it's too easy for ogres to get bogged down. Grab can be good as well - I find that opponents with Strip Ball and positioning skills such as Stand Firm and Side-Step are the bane of the ogre team as it greatly reduces their mobility, not to mention diving tackle.

I've played ogres several times in short leagues, and for short stretches in mm environments with an all time winning record with them. A few things I feel are worth emphasizing:

3 die blocks should be sought after at great length. The difference between 2 die block is huge! a 3 die block will find a pow 42% of the time compared to 31% for a 2 die block; you only hit a both down/skull set 4% of the time compared to 11%. This leads to massive increase in the number of casualties you inflict which in turn helps every other problem they face. As a result you will burn a lot less rerolls on blocking if you emphasize getting these over setting up more 2 die blocks. I will willingly throw snotlings into harms way to help make this happen. Not always my doubles choice, but guard on a snotling is more useful than people think (he isn't living long no matter what skill you give him). I do not take guard as a first choice for ogres, but I disagree that it isn't useful on a few because I aim so heavily for the 3 die block.

If you are creative you can take advantage of the snotling dodge/titchy/side step combo to fill gaps and create chain pushes that put ogres where your opponent isn't expecting it. Its hard to elaborate on this, but just remember that snotlings dodge anywhere 97% of the time if there isn't tackle involved. People will routinely tie up your players with fodder, but break tackle isn't the only way to get free. On many occasions I will dodge a snotling into traffic, then blitz a seemingly odd target just to push a different ogre into the ball carrier.

Piling On on one or two ogres makes a big difference, especially early on when facing 11 and 12 man rosters.

Don't throw snotlings unless you are desperate. They die easily enough just walking. I'd much rather lose one because it was left in a precarious place to give my piling on ogre the 3 die block he wanted.

There are lots of good doubles choices for snotlings, but I wouldn't bother with block as any unskilled st3 player will knock them down 42% of the time anyway. Doubles skills that I think are worth considering in no particular order: guard, dirty player, sure hands, dauntless, leader, kick, kick-off return (I've only done this on an ag boosted snotling, but it worked amazingly for me to combat the ball retrieval issues of a very slow team)

As for ball carrying, there really isn't a great way to do it in my opinion. You want the ogre with the ball in some situations, but then he isn't blocking which is bad. Running an ogre deep to recover a ball is problematic because he will have to test for bonehead and can get caught deep in his own side with little support. I will usually pick it up with a snotling, and then if I can secure a better moment hand it to an ogre at an appropriate time. Similarly if I get pinned down, my ogre may hand off to a snotling that can more easily run through the defense. I think in the end you should just be adaptable to what your opponent is playing and where the ball is kicked. I do try to develop an ogre as a ball carrier, but I'd only take sure hands if the league featured much strip ball. Its just easier to rely on snotlings to retrieve the ball and hand it to him, so I don't get much use out of the built in reroll compared to the other double choices available to an ogre.

I start with 5 ogres and 2 RRs. It will cost as much to save up for the 3rd RR as another ogre, but at least my ogres are more apt to get MVPs while I'm saving money. 2 RRs is painful, but by emphasizing the 3 die blocks over 2 die blocks it will not be needed as often for blocking.

I think the biggest trap with Ogres would be trying to fit them into a single skill set.

I think taking BT as a uniform first skill is fine, but then I'd want to mix things up. At lest 1 Juggernaut, possibly two. At least two Guard, possiblly three. I would hope for a double SOMEWHERE in my first eight to ten skills, and that double becomes Sure Hands.

Definitely agree on the diving tackle and break tackle, breaking tackle gives the ogres the chance for big plays to counter their inherent unreliability.

No one mentioned piling on, I'm not sure about it but getting to reroll injury with a +1 modifier is strong maybe even worth the prone dude and of course turn 8 and the like you can pile on with no drawback.

Another thing I have wondered is giving an ogre tackle as the first double(or 2nd after surehands) when facing blodge tackle doubles your knock down chances I think, hard to pass down block of course.

Overhamsteren wrote: No one mentioned piling on

It was briefly mentioned above. As mentioned break tackle should come first and then you can take a mix of skills, with a juggernaut, two or three guards and yes piling on. One strong arm is good as well, same for a grab. Anyway it's not like you have a massive skill choice so sooner or later you'll have to take a piling on.

Overhamsteren wrote: Another thing I have wondered is giving an ogre tackle as the first double(or 2nd after surehands) when facing blodge tackle doubles your knock down chances I think, hard to pass down block of course.

I don't think it's a good idea, for reliability and mobility block and dodge are more important and in ball protection sure hands is more important, so that's three doubles and it's already a miracle if you get two on the same ogre. The way to get blodgers down with ogres isn't subtle: just throw a 3D block and hope for the best. Anyway let's be honest, if you play against AG4 with ogres you already know you're going to take a severe defeat due to Titchy, one tackle isn't going to change much.