Kick as first skill on Necro Ghoul?

[fidius]

I play Necro in a very small league of 4 coaches, the other teams being Wood Elves (heavy attrition), Orcs (fresh team), and Skaven (highly developed). Each season we play one other twice, then a 2-round playoff, for a total of 8 games. We are 2 games into our 2nd season. I play Woodies and Orcs once more, and Skaven twice. Skaven are the team to beat, partly because the team rocks (see below) but also because the coach is a very good player.

I rolled 4 regular skillups last game and am debating two of the picks, hoping someone can help me think through the implications. My initial thoughts are in []. Here is my team:
2 Flesh Golems: Block/Guard, rookie
2 Wights: Tackle/MB, Tackle/[MB]
2 Ghouls: Block/[Sure Hands], [Kick]
2 Wolves: Block, +ST/[Block]
6 Zombies: +ST, Block, Guard, 3x rookie

First, MB on the Wight. Alternatives are Grab and Guard. Already have 2 other guard, plus 2x +ST, so didn't think Guard was urgent. Grab would help with SS Runners and with overall positioning, especially surfing with Wolves. But with 2/3 teams AV7, MB seemed like the right choice (they are already terrified by my other Tackle/MB Wight, why not double their pleasure?).

Next, Kick on the Ghoul. This choice has to do with my defensive positioning. I like to put 3x Zombies on the LOS, and the +ST Zombie in the secondary, for a wall of 3 ST4 guys across (shoulders and one wing). But then there is no space for a Kick Zombie: 2x Wolf, 2x Fleshie, 2x Wight, 1x ST4 Zombie, 1x Ghoul. Defensive Ghoul is the logical choice. Skill him with Wrestle next and he's a decent safety. Now, maybe I should rethink my defense -- but with a Rat Ogre, a Block Treeman, a Troll and 4xBOBs to contend with, I like to keep my beef off the line.

Why do I need Kick? Thinking that Kick is the best defense against the Skaven one-turn score. His team is filthy -- 3 GRs: +MA/Sprint/Two Heads, +AG/Block/SS, Block/SS/Shadowing; 2 Linos with Guard; 2 Blitzers with MB (one with Claw); and a Rat Ogre with Juggernaut/Break Tackle. Kick at least forces a throw to get the ball to the GR on the line. Since the RO can easily blitz a hole through my defense, no other skill seems as capable to protect against the 1TT. And he LOVES to 1TT.

Thoughts are appreciated...

Fidius

[swilhelm73]

Your wolves will be doing most of your blitzing, and you already have one tackle/MB piece - so I would take Guard on the wight.

For the Ghouls, I generally build one to be a ball carrier and one to be a wrackler. So I'd probably take wrestle on the one without block. For the one that already has block, take SS unless you do not field him on defense.

And for the WW, definitely block.

[Smeborg]

fidiuys - I don't think that there is a right or wrong with Necro development. Some of the systems followed for Necros in our league are:

- When Kick is taken, it is given as first skill to a Zombie.

- Give Sure Hands as first or second skill to one of the Ghouls, He does not play on defense, making way for the Zombie with Kick. This also ensures that if you kick first, you know that the Ghoul with Sure Hands will be available for the first time you receive. I observe that Necro teams that do not give Sure Hands to a Ghoul early on can struggle with results.

- Early Guard is quite popular on the Wights, but some coaches follow your system (Tackle, M-Blow). IMO it is Tackle and Guard that matter on the Wights, M-Blow can wait.

- The second Ghoul is sometimes developed as a ball-hunting Blitzer for use on defense, with (for example) Wrestle, Tackle, S-Step, Fend. This is the system that I would favour.

- Most coaches favour Block, Guard on the Golems (as do I), however some prefer Block, M-Blow (to ensure the Golems carry on getting SPPs).

- Wolf development is very orthodox, starting with Block, Dodge, S-Step and M-Blow/P-On on doubles.

Hope that helps. Most of these "systems" merge at higher skill levels. I think what matters is finding a development path for the team which suits your playing style (and opposition) through the early and middle skill periods.

[burgun824]

Short answer is "No." For the long answer, see Smeborg's response. It's pretty accurate IMO.

[fidius]

Thanks guys, but my question wasn't "what's the best system for Necro" (that answer is available here, on Plasmoid's site, and at bbtactics, and all say more or less the same thing -- which is not to say it's not good advice), the question is whether it makes sense to do two "off system" things given a) my desire to keep the +ST Zombie off the line, and b) my primarily AV7 opposition.

So to reframe my post:
1) Will Kick help defend the 1TT as much as I hope it will? If so, does it make sense to take it immediately on the "safety" Ghoul ahead of Wrestle?
2) If instead I wait several games for a rookie Zombie to skill for Kick (btw 2 of next 3 are against Skaven with the 1TT'r), then am forced to put him in the secondary between the zone lines, how does this change my defensive positioning? To my thinking it would force either the +ST Zombie or a Fleshie to the LOS, and make the defense weaker.
3) How much better is Guard than MB on a Tackle Wight when I've already got a FG and Zombie with Guard, and 2 +ST players? Especially given the AV7 opposition. (Guard is the no-brainer pick vs Orcs, I agree.)

I probably already have my answers (take the Kick now, go with Guard not MB) but your thoughts are still appreciated.

BTW I didn't invest in Kick to this point because I figured it makes less sense against high-mobility AG4 opposition. But I've since learned how devastating a poor kick can be against those teams, so it's more a risk-management tool than a tactical offensive one in this case.

Fidius

[swilhelm73]

Hmm, I've never been *that* worried about a 1 OTTD. If that is their offense of choice, it leaves you more time to pummel them. Yes, kick is nice, and not just to stop OTTD - but it is not as important as getting a wrackler, IMO. Remember that a wrackler means you are getting the target down 50% with 1D and 75% with 2D - without a reroll. And that isn't just ball carriers. See that Gutter Runner kind of alone? Wrackle and foul.

I've only had a kicker on my necro team for one season out of 4...and it didn't make that much of a difference in the results. I prefer kick as a late development skill for a Ghoul. Zombies need to be on the line. Of course I generally field ghouls on both sides of the ball.

Overall, kick will be most valuable against the Orcs, allowing you go get to the ball carrier before they can cage. Against ag4 teams they can just throw it deep anyway. It might add -1 to one roll if they are trying to do OTTD. Maybe.

On the wight you will likely use Guard more then MB. They are both great skills, but Necro NEED all 4 ST skill players to have Guard and not just against the Orcs. Frenzy, which you want to use, requires the support.

[Jimmy Fantastic]

No kick - it sucks.

[JaM]

Kick is a good skill, but NOT on a ghoul. Get that wrackler first, then kick on a zomb. Or play without it.

[Ullis]

Necro's can do fine without Kick. Most teams can.

Plus Kick will only make the skaven 1 turn score marginally more difficult with a high cost, in not taking some more useful skill, to your own team.

[spubbbba]

Honestly kick won’t do much to stop that team 1 turning. Assuming you don’t turn them over then pretty much your only chance is to go for the 2-1 grind and try to take out the natural 1 turner. With their high MA and agility then there is nowhere you can safely kick the ball that will more then inconvenience the gutters. Kick works best against slow teams or for high MA and AG teams to stop the other side caging or to grab a missed pick up.

If your opponent is going for the OTT when he doesn’t need to, such as the first turn of the game then that is great news for you. It is riskier than trying to score more slowly and gives you 16 turns to score twice and do as much damage as possible. You have some good natural weapons against chain pushing OTT’s in the shape of the golems but his Jugger Rat Ogre negates that somewhat.

Ghouls are probably the most vunerable non-stunty players so I’d say take block or wrestle 1st skill on them always unless they roll a stat, none of their doubles skills are that great really.

For the wight then Guard is still better than MB overall, all bar one of your ST4 is slow and easy to tie up. However if you are building the team to take down those skaven then an extra MB tackle guy would be very useful for targeting gutters or taking out the other AV7 meat shields to get at them.

[Piousman]

i would not take Kick on the Ghoul. Kick is only used once per drive. Wrestle will be used potentially many times.

As has been said, if you are concerned with the 1TTD, then Kick to them, make them score, then score again on turn 8. Second half score on turn 16. And in between beat them to a pulp.

Since you said that they are a pretty developed team, how are you inducements working? A Chainsaw with a few bribes may be good, or (my favorite) Will Chaney, to give a 3rd Wolf (S4).

- Piousman

[TheDoc]

i would not take Kick on the Ghoul. Kick is only used once per drive. Wrestle will be used potentially many times.

As has been said, if you are concerned with the 1TTD, then Kick to them, make them score, then score again on turn 8. Second half score on turn 16. And in between beat them to a pulp.

Since you said that they are a pretty developed team, how are you inducements working? A Chainsaw with a few bribes may be good, or (my favorite) Will Chaney, to give a 3rd Wolf (S4).

- Piousman

Don't take the chainsaw! Useless!! I took him 3 times last season adn good ol' Hack did nothing but kill himself Take Wilhelm Chaney and enjoy having a St4 frenzy ball-getter. I used him for my Necro and now Vampires and he is really good!

Piousman is right. Let him score in 1 turn then pound him for 16 with the wolves and the wights. You'll do enough damage to ensure the win. Don't get the ghoul kick. Take surehands, block, wrestle (if you want a someone to sack a ball carrier), tackle etc. Kick is for Zombies.