Talk Fantasy Football

Inspired by the impressive "A Few Thoughts on Khemri" post, a plea was sent out for a few thoughts on Necromantic thread.

While Necro are, I think, far easier to play than Khemri, the team does have some oddity and there's plenty of disagreements about starting rosters, player's values (some coaches don't use Flesh Golems, some are hesitant about Ghouls, etc.), and just what the team can do.

We do have some resources to already go on, including the rather long threads asking whether or not Necro Werewolves can benefit from Wrestle and whether or not Zombies should take Wrestle or Block. The consensus on the WW question was Block > Wrestle. As to the Zombie question, coaches seemed to be of two strongly different mindsets. If I had to summarize it, I'd say Positioning coaches favor Wrestle, while Bashy coaches favor Block.


I'm playing a league season right now with Necros and it's my first time playing any of the undead teams. Personally, I'm loving the team and having a blast with them.


I'd offer two starting points from my own observations thus far:

Necromantic really reward good positioning. In fact, it's what drew me to the team. My coaching style certainly prioritizes and prizes getting a good position over removing enemy players (as a general philosophy, probably because I hate having to rely on Armor dice -- even with things like Claw/MB/PO and systematic fouling, Armor rolls can run very, very cold). Necro may not seem like a positioning team because of the low agility and slow speed of half of the roster. But, with 2x Frenzy, 2x Stand Firm, and potentially Blodge/SS ghouls and wolves, this team can really, really control a sideline. With some careful positioning, you can really start surfing out players if the opponent isn't really conservative and cautious about how they position (and this is a huge asset, as it's like player removal without the reliance on Armor rolls). This generally means that driving up the sideline means the opponent has to cede you much more space and freedom than if you lacked the SS/SF/Frenzy pieces. Of course, the space control of SS/SF/Frenzy is still really useful even in the middle of the pitch, if you take full advantage of it. But with Necros, I always drive a sideline cage, at least initially.

Necro aren't a bash team, but a hybrid team. I may be an outlier in viewing the team like this, but I think they are much more like humans than orcs. If you're playing an Agile team or a hybrid team, you can go bashy and try to out-block them. But if you're going up against a proper Bash team (Orcs, Chaos, Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves, some Pact builds, etc.) odds are they'll have more Guard and brute strength than you, so winning a straight-up scrum will be unlikely. In these cases, you should switch to playing an Agile dash game, and use your positioning advantage to control the space on the pitch while your zombies take tie up their most useful pieces (who won't be terribly great at dodging free).



Well, hopefully that gets things started.

I've enjoyed playing my Necro team (The Metabolically Challenged) for the last four seasons in GOBBLN. I think that you are correct that positioning is everything with this team.

But in addition to the advantages you possess on the sidelines, I would also point out the team build rewards positioning.

Consider that you have 2 really tough players in the FGs - AV9 ST4, TS, Regen

You have 0-16 durable zombies with AV8 and regen and CHEAP

Your WWs and Wights are also durable - but as your blitzers you can't afford to have them tied down, and with only ag3, you can't reposition like elves...

Finally your ghouls are very easy to hurt.

So if you can force your opponent to hit your FGs and Zs, you will be at a major advantage. You will beat most teams at an attrition war even if they have more kill skills.

As an example in last season's finals, I played a very bashy Orc team - MB everywhere. And in the opening phases of the game, they took out a lot of my Zs and even my rookie FGs...but in return I was eliminating well developed blitzers and BOBs.

By the end of the game I had 11 players on the field to my opponent's 6, even though he clearly had more killers, more guard, more ST, and more AV. And when he broke down the flank for a desperate run to the end zone, he couldn't get away from my WWs...

swilhelm73 wrote:I've enjoyed playing my Necro team (The Metabolically Challenged)

That's a winner right there. Great name.

I'd agree with all the points made so far.

I'm a relative newb with Necro (~20 games with the Awkward Paws) having played mostly DE and Orcs before, but have found that I tend to play with one Ghoul on at a time and have one built defensively (wrodge with Strip Ball next) and one offensively (a fortunate 8347 Blodger with Sure Hands up next). My Wights are underdeveloped as they keep dying (lost 2 already, both at 15SPP with guard) and so I tend to use them as mobile Zombies (although I do use them to blitz when needs be), and my (rookie) FGs I try to keep spaced with 2 squares between them after an initial position which would allow either to hit the sidelines (if that makes sense - split quite a bit initially but not so much that they can't squeeze the middle as needed). The work is done by the WWs (ofc), one of which was lucky enough to hit +ST, while both are blodgers (as Juriel about his ridiculous WWs with 3 +ST rolls between them).
Positioning is key, and breaking at the right time with the high MA. At about 1600TV right now, which is working well, and a bit more Guard and some MB would be all I would really want for the team to be spot on for me. Necro can really capitalise on inducements, and a wizard is always first choice with the MA to take advantage of it, and a bribe is always nice as I have a SG/DP zombie. I've found the Count to be superb value, too, with his Hypno and an ST4 WW making for some excellent anti-cage opportunities.

I won my last game (vs WE) on the foot of a DP zombie with a bribe - 3 CAS including two of my opponent's best players.

But...it is tough at times to get him in position. In the game above their was a downed WD where I wanted to go, and later he ran all his players away from me except the tree - which with 8 assists isn't too hard to injure.

One big problem I see is the guard shortage.

You can cycle guard Wights fairly easily since they can score TDs and come with block.

But FGs take forever to level up - they can't score unless you completely control the field, they don't get many CAS, and they are usually tying up a number of opposing players so they go down a lot.

I've yet to roll doubles on a Z - and both ghouls that got guard died not long after.

Let's discuss starting rosters:

My roster of choice:

1 Werewolf
2 Flesh Golems
2 Wights
1 Ghoul
5 Zombies
3 Rerolls

Here's why:

Werewolfs are great, but as much a danger to themselves as to the opponent until they get Block, so starting with 1 means you can get him that 1st skill before you introduce the second one.

Flesh Golems are terribly slow to skill, so the more chances of an MVP, the better. Also they are pretty effective against non-Block opponents, which most players are at the start.

Wights are your most reliable blockers, so you need them immediately.

Ghouls are fragile, as with Werewolves, you want your first one to be skilled up (Block or Wrestle) before the second one comes in play.

3 Rerolls, because this team has no AG 4, no skill rerolls apart from 1 or 2 x Dodge, only 2 players that start with Block and 1 or 2 non-block Frenziers.

Dr. Von Richten wrote:Let's discuss starting rosters:

My roster of choice:

1 Werewolf
2 Flesh Golems
2 Wights
1 Ghoul
5 Zombies
3 Rerolls

Here's why:
..."excellent points"...

I started with the same roster for my Necros this season for all of the same reasons. I think it really is the way to go out of the gate (at least for leagues). It's the reason I start teams like High Elves with only one Catcher: I'd rather power-level one catcher and get him some skill protection first, then rinse and repeat with new catchers hired one at a time. Reduces their vulnerabilities. In fairness my first couple of games with this Necro roster were pretty rough losses, but I was playing mostly developed teams with about 200TV (including a killy Chaos team).

RogueThirteen - good OP - I think this is a worthy subject for a decent discussion. I claim no expertise with Necros, so I will be brief. I think they are a difficult team to master, both in play and in development. Their advantages:

- Mini-maxed MA.
- Great positional/anti-positional skills on their slowest and fastest players (S-Firm and Frenzy).
- Resilience (only 2 players lacking Regen).

They seem to like scrambled or spread play on both O and D. They seem to do badly when play is bunched. For example: keeping a Wolf in each half, or on each flank seems better than keeping them together. But it's hard to keep the Wolves on the leash due to their Frenzy.

I favour developing one Ghoul for offense (the Runner), and one for defense (Wrestle etc.). Leaving the Runner in the dugout on defense allows a Kick Zombie to take his place (Necros have the speed to exploit deep kicks).

Development can be tough, because the FGs skill up so slowly, and because the Wolves seem to always be in skill deficit. Wights are all-round supporting players. Some suggestions:

ZOMBIES: Block, Tackle (rather than Block, Fend - the team is short of Tackle). Doubles: Guard (outstanding).

WIGHTS: Tackle, Guard. The team is short of both Tackle and Guard. M-Blow can be deferred, since the Golems and Wolves are the main Blockers and Blitzers (e.g. on the first turn of offense).

GHOULS: Covered above: one Runner, one ball-hunting Blitzer.

GOLEMS: Block, Guard. Too annoying to resist, I feel. However, I understand those coaches who take M-Blow as second skill (easier to do if you have a couple of Guard Zombies).

WOLVES: Very orthodox: Block, Dodge, S-Step, Fend, Tackle. On doubles: M-Blow, P-On. Dauntless is also worthy of consideration, as is Shadowing and Jump-Up. Too many lovely skills chasing too few slots.

Hope that helps - back to the experts now...

What I like about Necromantic teams is that they can be developed in a lot of different ways, and still be effective, the standard build has pretty much been cover about, block, guard golems, guard SF wights, 1 wrestle tackle ghoul, 1 sure hands block ghoul. werewolves to hunt, zombies to mark, but they can be very effective used in other ways as well.

I currently have two Necromantic Teams one in Fol, and one I use for BBATTL tournaments, they are really different so much so that changing between the two can be pretty difficult as they play. The Team in FOL are my undead Elves, I have a super star wolf, with +ma +ag, block, nerves of steel, pass block. now dont laugh he has made more interceptions that I have combined with all the other teams I have played on cyanide. getting 1 every other game on average, mainly because people really do not expect a Pass Blocking, MA9 AG4 NoS player on a undead team. He is partnered with a far more traditional Block, Dodge, Tackle wolf. Golems both have block, i am torn between guard, MB and grab, grab being very helpful for the teams speciality. My guard, sf wight just died so I have a rookie, and a JUPOMB wight, who sits around the LoS trying to hurt things. He is the only real hitter in the team. Ghouls one has wrestle the other sure hands pretty straight forward. std zombie set up, got one, 1 DP , 2 block, guard. 3 naked for the LoS and marking duty. This team stays mobile scoring alot averaging around 3 TD per game. Necromantic teams a really good for 1TT's with frenzy and high Ma, the main difficulty is feeding the ball to the forward player, but an AG 4 NoS takes it on a 2+ and only needs pushing three squares forwards. They are a lot of fun to mess around with.

My BBATTL team is all about giving pain. WW1 Ma9 MB, Block, WW2 Block, tackle. 1 rookie golem (well hes been in the team same time but has 2spp!) and Block, Mighty blow, grab Golem. 2 Wights JUPOMB & Tackle POMB they are great I use them as a pair and have really dismantled a few teams. 6 zombies, 2 guard, 2 DP. Ghouls Block guard, and +1ma, sure hands, block. In most teams I actually don't normally bother with +Ma but one of the main things I like about necromantic teams is there speed, so a extra couple of Ma never goes amiss. This team are a rapid strike force, I use a combination of frenzy and grab to put other players out of formation, where I POMB them, MBCW them and DP them repeatedly. I use zombies to mark. More than capable of 1turn touchdowns also with the ghoul to get the ball to the wolf.This team really do hurt, If given the choice I will kick, and generally I am not to bothered about scoring during the first half of the game, half time down 2-0 is not that bigger deal, because while they go off and score TD's I will be taking out players, and trying to defend against 1Ma7 player, 2Ma 8 players, and a Ma9 player with 6-8 players really is not happening. I have found teams are never ready for how vicious an onslaught this team can bring, I have taken out higher rated chaos teams, humans with multiple super star JUMBPO bliterz. Its not just about that they hit hard, its that combined with the forced movement. The team does really need either some +str or dauntless but I have alot of fun with them.

Right that's it for me discussing different ways of using the team, a tactics thread should focus more on the optimum set up.. or on this Wolf the is hunting around the Occ, he has a Str 4 MB wolf as a partner which is broken... But this thing is a complete MONSTER from hell!!

crimsonsun - I agree Necros are a very mutable team - all it takes is a a few judiciious stat increases and doubles. They are also mutable in that the players' roles within the team alter as they develop.

Thank you Rogue13, for answering my plea!

I agree with your points and would like to add something.

First, something about terminology.
Necro are an hybrid team, and a "reactive tactic" one also, ie a team that need to heavily adapt its play style to the opponent (for a definition of reactive vs main tactic see this old thread: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=31993&p=567510&hil ... cs#p567510 ).
Nitpicking, I know, but hybrid team and reactive tactics are not the same thing. For example, many people define the Amazons an hybrid team, yet the 'Zons do not use reactive tactics: they got their own game (light bash) and impose this game to the opponent with only slight modifications. Humans on the other hand are hybrid and use reactive tactics (and you correctly made a paragon with the Necros).

Going on the sideline.
I agree that Necros are at their best when they own the sidelines, thanks to their S-Firm and Frenzy.
Yet, in the 2011 league (TT) I was increasingly frustrated by sidestepping Black Orcs and such shutting out the sidelines.
After some setbacks I had to adapt and tried to brute-force my way through the middle, trusting the F-Golems to provide an haven to the blitzing Wolves and Wights. It was surprisingly effective and managed to outbash Orcs, Lizardmen and Nurgles.
So, the sidelines are "plan A", but a Necro's coach should always be ready to embrace "plan B" (just to reinforce Crimsonsun's contribution).

Now a question for the assorted coaches:
How do you reconcile the need to protect the Ww and the savage urge to exploit the opponent's errors?
Necros, being weaker than bashers and clumsier than finesse teams, need to capitalize on opponent's mistakes to win. Yet losing a Ww is a serious setback, far more than losing a catcher for Elves/H-Elves/Skaven: they got 4 of them, are easier to skill-up, and the lineman replacing it is better than a Zombie.
Btw, this "problem" is another factor that make Necros an interesting challenge to me.

A key factor with Necros is player development. You have some players that are very hard to skill up and others that generate loads of spp’s but tend to have shorter lifespans.

Necros are one of the weaker tier 1 starting teams as due to high cost you always have to make sacrifices. I like Dr. Von Richten’s starting lineup for a long term league as you maximise chances of getting the MVP on the AG2 players. If it was a tournament or short league then starting with 2 wolves is a must as it can take quite a while to save up the cash for the 2nd wolf and you start with only 4 AG3 players.

Necros really shine at the low-mid TV range or at tournaments where you can have a full squad and assign plus stack skills.
The ghouls and wolves skill themselves and rookies are still good players so losing them is less of a disaster assuming you have the cash to replace them. The real difficulty comes when skilled golems die as it can take a long time to get them to 6 spp’s much less 16.

As with all hybrid teams they tend to suffer at higher TV since they lack the brute power or strength access to take on the other bashers but can’t easily outrun/dodge them either. Mass regen can help you stay in the game but may not affect the actual result as you’ll still have to wait to the next drive which could be too late. They also struggle to take down elves quickly enough to make it count and can get hurt back. If elves can take out key AG3 players then it can be a real disaster.

So to compete at high TV necros need doubles and stats in the right places. A couple of guard zombies and MB on a wolf makes a huge difference as does AG4 on a ghoul or wolf. Golems as roadblocks and punching bags only need block, but guard will make the team better and MB skill them up faster.

When it comes to zombies then skills are difficult since for normal skills aside from block or wrestle and some dp they really don’t benefit from much else. A normal skill increases their cost by 50% and with raise the dead they are often free so in some cases 3 rookies may be better than 2 skilled.

Indeed, I had a Golem take 33 games to get 6 SPP.

Presuming you are running 13 players, an MVP should land on a Golem every 6.5 games, but it never seems to work out that way.

And the difference between running a necro team with two block/guard FGs and with two rookies is enormous.

Any experience on doubles for the team?

Werewolves are easy. I'm now convinced that there's simply no reason to deviate from MB and PO. Perhaps Juggernaut after those two but that's highly theoretical.

Flesh Golems are much harder. Only AG2 so Dodge is only for defensive purposes as there's much better dodgers on the team. I have one FG in my Fumbbl team where I gave the other FG Dodge as a second skill. Yes, annoying at times for the opponent but Guard and MB offer so good value that I'm not really sure. Maybe as a fourth skill? Diving Tackle or something else would have the same issue of pushing back Guard and MB.

Wights face the same issue. The team really does need Guard so Dodge pushes other skills back. I had a Wight with Dodge and Leader but that wight didn't really have a place in the team apart from having Leader. Ghouls and werewolves make better dodgers.

Last, Ghouls. Not much there besides Guard. The team needs Guard and it combos nicely with Blodge and Side step. I think passing skills are a suboptimal pick because there are no catchers. Leader perhaps due to high TV cost of rerolls.

Necro are hybrid, which means in higher-TV play the specialized teams have the advantage. Because all but two players on the team are ST3, and that isn't going to stand up to someone like Orcs in a bashfest. And half the team is MA4 and AG2 (with the mobile players being only AG3), which means it's not hard for elves to screen them out of the action.

While they have at first glance min/maxed positionals, each filling their role perfectly, in practise this means losing any suddenly limits your options a ton. A Necro team with both Wolves and both Ghouls on the pitch is a lot different from one that has lost one of each - this is also why the first games can be a bit punishing, as you don't yet have all your positionals. And that is why I tend to field both Ghouls on defense, because otherwise you're down on mobility right away.

Golems are great with just Block/Guard, but they get stuck next to opponents so much that they're also at a much greater risk of taking injuries. And skilling them up takes forever, and in a developed environment (with ClawPOMB), an unskilled FG is an easy target who just keeps standing back up until broken.