Frenzy VS Tackle

[The Hurricane]

Okay all you static wizards out there (and common folk who just have a general opinion), which is better for knocking the ball loose? Frenzy or Tackle?

The skill will be on a Blitzer with Block and Side Step.

He will be accompanied by another Blitzer with Block, Guard, Side Step.

My gut is telling me Frenzy in this instance, but I want opinions and statistics.

Thanks!

[Loki]

Before the real stato's get involved to be clear do you mean 'knock a player over to get the ball'' or 'get the ball loose' as the first is a straight Frenzy vs Tackle question the second I would suggest should really include Strip Ball in the conversation.

[The Hurricane]

Knocking a player over. Sorry for the confusion.

[Afroman]

Against a blodger
One Block Dice
Frenzy 25%
Tackle 33%

Two Block Dices
Frenzy 44%
Tackle 56%

Tackle wins

Against Block only
One Block Dice
Frenzy 54%
Tackle 33%

Two Block Dices
Frenzy 79%
Tackle 56%

Frenzy wins

Against unskilled
One Block Dice
Frenzy 72%
Tackle 50%

Two Block Dices
Frenzy 92%
Tackle 75%

Frenzy wins


This doesn't take into account the down sides of Frenzy(auto-follow up, bad placement, etc).
It does take into acount the down sides of tackle(useless where there isn't any dodge.)

[horekim]

Keep in mind that half of the time your opponent won't even have any dodgers.

[Darkson]

Okay all you static wizards out there

Static wizards are easier to hit, I like to keep my wizards moving - they last longer that way.

[Loki]

I think I am a static wizard... but the wife just says I'm lazy

[rolo]

Exactly what Afroman said, it depends on how many of your opponent's ball carriers have Dodge.

By the way, if there's not a lot of Sure Hands on your schedule, and all you care about is putting the ball in play, Strip Ball beats both.

[babass]

wrestle is a good choice as well, as many ball carrier have block

[soyelpera]

Against a blodger
One Block Dice
Frenzy 25%
Tackle 33%

Two Block Dices
Frenzy 44%
Tackle 56%

Tackle wins

Against Block only
One Block Dice
Frenzy 54%
Tackle 33%

Two Block Dices
Frenzy 79%
Tackle 56%

Frenzy wins

Against unskilled
One Block Dice
Frenzy 72%
Tackle 50%

Two Block Dices
Frenzy 92%
Tackle 75%

Frenzy wins


This doesn't take into account the down sides of Frenzy(auto-follow up, bad placement, etc).
It does take into acount the down sides of tackle(useless where there isn't any dodge.)

What about players that only have dodge, I know it doesn't happen that often but still. Regarding down sides, there are also good things for both of them besides blocking, like frenzy makes surfing much easier and tackle could pin dodgers down to make their dodges more risky

[Smeborg]

Simple answer: Wrestle wins.

Moral of the story: Tackle can be wasted (if the opposing player or his team lack Dodge).

Complex answer: Frenzy may win extra blocks by pushing the opposing player 2 squares instead of 1 (or may result in the player being surfed). Thus the answer cannot be easily described in statistics (it depends also on position).

Hope that helps.

[Christy42]

Tackle for me. Too often frenzy traps abound when going after the ball carrier as you can be lucky to get one good shot off. Never mind two.

However Frenzy has its uses disrupting cages and controlling the game. If I wanted to go after the ball carrier I would prefer tackle (generally). As others have said it is situation specific but dodge players frequently get given the ball if there is a lack of tackle on the opposite site and they can be well protected making the second frenzy hit difficult.

[Smeborg]

In case my point was missed, Wrestle is clearly better than Tackle or Frenzy for popping the ball loose:

- Against Blodge, Wrestle is equivalent to Block+Tackle (5/9 chance or .56 on a 2 die block)

- Against Block, Wrestle is clearly better than Block+Tackle (3/4 vs. 5/9 or .75 to .56)

- Against Blodge, Wrestle is better than Block+Frenzy (5/9 vs. 209/432 or .56 to .48)

- Against Block, Wrestle is very slightly better than Block+Frenzy (3/4 vs. 20/27 or .75 to .74)

Only if the ball-carrier lacks Block do Block+Tackle and Block+Frenzy become equivalent to, or better than Wrestle.

An important advantage of Wrestle is that it does not need to be paired with another skill (whereas Tackle and Frenzy hanker for Block). This can be huge - I have run many successful teams (in both leagues and tournaments) without Tackle, but with plentiful Wrestle. Some teams, and some player types, have a natural affinity with Wrestle.

And last but not least, Wrestle pairs rather neatly with other skills (Tackle or Strip Ball come to mind). No need for Block.

Of course your player has Block already, just saying...

Hope that helps.

[dreamscreator]

In case my point was missed, Wrestle is clearly better than Tackle or Frenzy for popping the ball loose:

- Against Blodge, Wrestle is equivalent to Block+Tackle (5/9 chance or .56 on a 2 die block)

- Against Block, Wrestle is clearly better than Block+Tackle (3/4 vs. 5/9 or .75 to .56)

- Against Blodge, Wrestle is better than Block+Frenzy (5/9 vs. 209/432 or .56 to .48)

- Against Block, Wrestle is very slightly better than Block+Frenzy (3/4 vs. 20/27 or .75 to .74)

Only if the ball-carrier lacks Block do Block+Tackle and Block+Frenzy become equivalent to, or better than Wrestle.

An important advantage of Wrestle is that it does not need to be paired with another skill (whereas Tackle and Frenzy hanker for Block). This can be huge - I have run many successful teams (in both leagues and tournaments) without Tackle, but with plentiful Wrestle. Some teams, and some player types, have a natural affinity with Wrestle.

And last but not least, Wrestle pairs rather neatly with other skills (Tackle or Strip Ball come to mind). No need for Block.

Of course your player has Block already, just saying...

Hope that helps.

It's a good point BUT... if you are playing an Orc team, you don't want your elf opponent player laying in the floor, you want it out of the pitch. For agility teams I agree totally with you about spread wrestle, but in banshy teams, more than one or two I don't think is a good idea.

[Smeborg]

Thanks for your kind words, dreamscreator.

In my direct experience, Wrestle works exceedingly well on the following teams/players:

- DEs (Witch Elves)
- PEs (Catchers)
- Khorne (Pit Fighters)
- Nurgle (Pestigors)
- Chaos (Beastmen)

I suggest it also works well on:

- Humies (Linos)
- Orcs (Linos)

You can follow with Tackle to create a player who is better at getting the ball off AG teams than their Blitzer brethren.

Hope that helps.