Talk Fantasy Football

Carrying on from the thread started in General Chat:

I tend to think that the undead is way too overpowered. They have a good mix of speed, agility, and strength, access to a wide variety of skills and their regenerate means that they'll never be disadvantaged by a shortage of men.

Consider - an Undead team can start a season with 2 ST5 and up to 4 MA7 players. Given they can have 2 mummies, 4 wights and 4 ghouls, they only have to field one skeleton or zombie in order to make up 11 players.

If Wights had AG2 then the team would be a little more balanced and have an exploitable weakness (only 4 real ball handlers, like a dwarf team). But as it stands there are no serious weaknesses on an undead team.

With a good coach they are very difficult to beat, with an excellent coach they are nearly impossible.

Opinions?

I see your point, however as an undead coach from time to time I wouldn't take 4 ghouls to start with anyway.

4 AV7 blokes who cannot regen and I cannot have an apo, they need AG3 +dodge to just survive out there.

I would take zombies just to have some men on the los and that reduction in movement hurts a starting Undead team. you cannot really play undead like any other team.

Mummies who have to use all their MA to stand up is not a good thing so although they are strength 5 until they get block they are weak, wights are not much better as Galak has been happily showing me via Pbem

I love the diversity, yet appreciate their weaknesses and agree with DW that a decent coach will run rings around them with gutter runners/wood elves or lion warriors. they just cannot keep up.

just my tuppence anyway

Pretty much given my opinion on the other thread, but I'll add a couple of points:
If you put 4 Ghouls on the field at once, you're asking to be outnumbered, they're just too vunerable at AV7 without a regen/apoth. We tend to have a very high turnover of Ghouls, opposing coaches simply target them mercilessly. And why put four vulnerable recievers on the field with no throwers?
As I said on the other thread, I don't agree with that they have access to a wide variety of skills. 2 players with ST access, and 4 vulnerable players with agility access? The rest are limited to general. Compare that with Human, Orc etc.

I almost felt like you backed me up there DW.

I think the wide range is in player types and not skills although in the case of Skeletons/Zombies it is merely superficial.

I lose ghouls regularly too. I just put them down and next time i look they are gone.

On 2002-03-08 12:30, voyagers_uk wrote:
I almost felt like you backed me up there DW.

We were typing at the same time, certainly didn't read your post until after I'd posted mine anyway! We agree on a few points, now I'm interested in what others think, we could just be a pair of clueless tw*ts!

And why don't reduce mumis to 1 as I said in my other posts?

the secret is out....

only 1 ST MA3 AG1 player on the team will weaken it far too much, play a season with them and see for yourself. Once they have Block then the Mummy is something to be feared, but until then they are just lumbering piles of rags.

They're difficult to beat in the beginning, but later, other players catch up and become stronger then the undead team. Confessing, when all teams start with TR 100, they rule.....But actually, I'll keep my mouth shut, because I can continue forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.

Lucy

another personal thread for Lucy...

Agreed .... 2 MA 3/ST 5 players, 4 Blitzers with no access to Strength skills, 4 Runners with AV 7 who cannot be apothecaried, and Lineman that are little more than cannon fodder (even if the Zombie is the best lineman for cannon fodder in the game).

This is not a team that I find broken whatsoever ... its a fun team but a good agility team will run circles around them .... see my recent defeat of voyagers Undead team loaded with Tackle and Guard with my human team despite giving up 29 points of TR, having a -1 penalty to all my AV rolls against him, and not being able to foul him ... they just don't have enough mobility once you get close to TR 200 to dominate unless they have a strong coach ... the strength of the team doesn't match up for speed other teams bring to the table.

Now a strong coach can do great with the Undead (ie Chet and Voyagers) ... but a strong coach can win league's with a Halfling team so that proves just about nothing.

Galak

Undead have advantages and disadvantages, just like any other team.

The advantages are obvious:
1. Regenerate. This might be the biggest advantage going. In theory, Undead should never find themselves shorthanded.

2. Mummies. They are the only team with a pair of ST5 players with no racial characteristics.

3. Cheap cannon fodder. Zombies are great at one thing, and one thing only: Standing in front of the other team's more homicidal players.

But Undead have some serious disadvantages, too:

1. Lack of an Apothecary. Your best ball-handlers do not regenerate, which makes their AV7 hides very vulnerable to any player with Block, Tackle, or both. This means that a full quarter of your team violates the #1 advantage your team has.

2. Mummies are dead slow! If you knock one down, he can't even Move or Blitz without a GFI roll. They're also quite easy to avoid or isolate. Just dodge away. If you coach a punchy team, try hitting them. Usually works.

3. The cannon fodder is cheap. And by "cheap," I don't mean price. Or I am, in the sense that you get what you pay for. The Zombies are dirt slow, so they're very easily to leave behind. The Skeletons are faster, but brittle. Field too many, and you'll find yourself making too many Regenerate rolls.

4. No access to a regular Wizard. The first time an Undead team comes up against an opponent with 50,000 gold pieces to spare, he can count on a big Fireball crimping his style. Lack of AG on half the team really hurts here. Especially on the Mummies.

5. Limited access to skill categories. Mummies can get Strength skills. Ghouls can get Agility skills. That leaves 10 players who can get General skills only. Which, loosely translated, means that Wights aren't Blitzers. They're glorified Human linemen. Glorified undead Human linemen, but glorified Human linemen nonetheless.

6. Substandard AV. An Undead team has two players with AV9, and at least four with AV7. Any Skeletons only make this worse. You can actually punch your way through the Undead if you focus your attacks properly. They have plenty of vulnerabilities in this regard.

So there you have it. They're a better team now, of course, having received a couple extra linemen - err, "Wights," a couple extra Wights!

But I don't think they're overpowered.

-Chet

if they cant get luthor, it is a balanced team.
KILL HIM




TWICE!!

QUOTE:
The advantages are obvious:
1. Regenerate. This might be the biggest advantage going. In theory, Undead should never find themselves shorthanded.

Regenerate sucks.
Just had to say it <IMG SRC="/phpBB/images/smiles/blurp_anim.gif">

I will not go into details because I already did that a hundred times

Lucy

Thanks for the replies. I must admit I did play devil's advocate a little, I don't find Undead completely unbeatable - I do however find them extraordinarily powerful.

I've seen a few points raised that I always hear in defence of Undead and I'm still yet to be convinced that they are really all that valid:

1: You can't regenerate ghouls and they only have armour 7

- You can't regenerate linerats and they only have armour 7 as well.

The argument that "regeneration isn't all that good because you can't use it on the ghouls" is, to me, kind of like saying "ST 5 isn't all that good because only the mummies have it".

No other team can regenerate. Other teams may get one apothecary but once that's used they are just as vulnerable. When's the last time you played undead and walked away with only one casualty?

A great number of undead coaches will argue that being unable to regenerate ghouls is a collosal weakness. Having regeneration at all is a powerful strength. Failing to have it on the entire team is not exactly a "weakness"

2: Mummies only move 3 - you can avoid them.

- Nice in theory but doesn't work that way in practice. Any undead coach worth his salt will be marching the ball within 2 squares of both mummies at all times. It's extremely hard to break the ball loose from an escort like that.

There is also the point that mummies are the only strength 5 player available to a team that does not carry with it a large chance of turning you over or ruining your play. Movement of 3 is a small price to pay in exchange for being able to use team rerolls and having full freedom to move at any time in the turn, or, for that matter, being able to actually move without standing around scratching their bandages leaving big holes where their tackle zones were.

3: Undead are tough at the start but develop poorly.

- Yes and no on this one. They are a lot tougher when everyone's TR 100 than they are when everyone's TR 200 but they are still very strong league team in the long haul.

For starters they simply don't lose nearly as many players as other teams. They rarely get casualties scored on them and even when they do, regenerate kicks in and keeps the numbers high. Once you have a numerical advantage on the pitch casualties become fewer and fewer and you lose fewer and fewer players.

The lack of strength skills on blitzers is a good point but, frankly, under 2k1 there's very few strength skills I'd actually give them. They need doubles to get dodge just like most other non-elf blitzers, mighty blow and guard are 2 they miss out on but with the mummies they don't exactly hurt for it. They still get other lovely blitzer standards like tackle and strip ball so they are still highly effective.

Another factor accounting for poor development on an undead team is the fact that, frankly, team development is an underrated skill and it's certainly not a skill prized by many of the players who pick undead. Present company excepted, certainly.

I have, however, played against dozens of different undead teams and about 80% of their coaches are the kind who think a team is useless without razor sharp fangs, claws and dirty player. The remaining 20% are sharp coaches with an eye for a well rounded team and, when they develop their undead for actually winning games rather than solely hurting the opposition, they build an extremely potent team with few if any weaknesses.

In summary: yes, there are a few things that undead aren't perfect at, but my point is simply that these are not weaknesses to be exploited but simply factors of the game that coaches of most teams like humans, skaven, or orcs have to contend with.

So far in our league I have a win record over 4 seasons of ~85%. That's using Skaven, Orcs and Lizardmen. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I was to take Undead for the next season my record would creep even higher. Part of my reason for posting this thread is to try to ascertain whether or not the power of Undead is my imagination or not. See, I'm keen to give them a go (and keen to paint up the team as well) but I don't want the rest of the league accusing me of picking an easy team.

Marcus

Interesting, couple of thoughts in reply:

1: You can't regenerate ghouls and they only have armour 7

- You can't regenerate linerats and they only have armour 7 as well.

Granted, but losing linerats still leaves a Skaven team plenty of speed to cover, they're not exactly key players on a Skaven team. They're basically cannon fodder, and the same can't be said for Ghouls.

No other team can regenerate. Other teams may get one apothecary but once that's used they are just as vulnerable. When's the last time you played undead and walked away with only one casualty?

Point taken, but an apothecary can be used to protect key players, which is important in the long/mid term. Undead may well suffer less casualties than most, but it helps little if you regen. a rookie skeleton and a zombie with Block, and fail your AG 5 Wight roll.

2: Mummies only move 3 - you can avoid them.

- Nice in theory but doesn't work that way in practice. Any undead coach worth his salt will be marching the ball within 2 squares of both mummies at all times. It's extremely hard to break the ball loose from an escort like that.

Agreed, it's very difficult to stop a well coached Undead team from scoring (with most teams), but the name of the game against them is self preservation, delay, hammer the weak guys and ultimately outscore them. It's hard to stop them, but then it's not too difficult to score on them.

There is also the point that mummies are the only strength 5 player available to a team that does not carry with it a large chance of turning you over or ruining your play. Movement of 3 is a small price to pay in exchange for being able to use team rerolls and having full freedom to move at any time in the turn, or, for that matter, being able to actually move without standing around scratching their bandages leaving big holes where their tackle zones were.

Yep, but ( talking mid term onwards) Orcs can put 4 ST4 Black Orcs out, and a total of 8 players that can take Guard. Similarly Chaos, (except everybody can take Guard). So you can field an Ogre, 4 ST4 players and probably at least a couple of Guards v. a couple of Mummies. I know which side I'd rather be on!

3: Undead are tough at the start but develop poorly.

- Yes and no on this one. They are a lot tougher when everyone's TR 100 than they are when everyone's TR 200 but they are still very strong league team in the long haul.

For starters they simply don't lose nearly as many players as other teams. They rarely get casualties scored on them and even when they do, regenerate kicks in and keeps the numbers high. Once you have a numerical advantage on the pitch casualties become fewer and fewer and you lose fewer and fewer players.

Agreed, they don't lose as many long term, but Ghouls and Skeletons remain vulnerable, and you need to field some of them to maintain any kind of pace. In the longer term, regen. is a factor. On the field, it doesn't matter squat for that drive, and you only get the one 50/50 chance anyway!

The lack of strength skills on blitzers is a good point but, frankly, under 2k1 there's very few strength skills I'd actually give them. They need doubles to get dodge just like most other non-elf blitzers, mighty blow and guard are 2 they miss out on but with the mummies they don't exactly hurt for it. They still get other lovely blitzer standards like tackle and strip ball so they are still highly effective.

Access to Guard on a running team I consider crucial, see answer above. I maintain my opinion that a 200TR Chaos, Dwarf or Orc team should be able to win the scrimmage war over Undead simply because of Guard access.

The remaining 20% are sharp coaches with an eye for a well rounded team and, when they develop their undead for actually winning games rather than solely hurting the opposition, they build an extremely potent team with few if any weaknesses.

In summary: yes, there are a few things that undead aren't perfect at, but my point is simply that these are not weaknesses to be exploited but simply factors of the game that coaches of most teams like humans, skaven, or orcs have to contend with.

Hmm..got a feeling that the same 20% could probably build an even more potent Orc team! All teams have their strengths and weaknesses, I'd say that a 'sharp' coach will play to the former and play around the latter, no matter who they're coaching. I guess what I'm getting at is that the better coaches will win with any of the 'top tier' teams.

So far in our league I have a win record over 4 seasons of ~85%. That's using Skaven, Orcs and Lizardmen. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I was to take Undead for the next season my record would creep even higher. Part of my reason for posting this thread is to try to ascertain whether or not the power of Undead is my imagination or not. See, I'm keen to give them a go (and keen to paint up the team as well) but I don't want the rest of the league accusing me of picking an easy team.

Tricky, depends on season length/format etc.
If you're all starting TR100 you'll certainly get a jump (going back to the short/long term factor). I'd say one of the easier teams to begin with, but no more than competitive in the mid term onwards. What the hell, if you wanna paint and play with them, go with it, and if you sweep all before you then play Gobbos next time around!
Keep us informed, whatever!
-Woody

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Deathwing on 2002-03-09 01:15 ]</font>