Brand new player looking for advice

[Digger Goreman]

Well, I ended up ordering a Chaos team. Or rather, minis that I will convert INTO my Chaos team. What I'm actually using are the Wendigo models from Crocodile Games:
https://www.crocodilegames.com/store/it ... ort=prodID

Crocodile has great potential and nice figs (mostly).... I own four of their ghouls (excellent alternative figs) and two of their specialty figs (Basti and Croc Gamers)....

Hope to see the painted product soon!

And yes, when you're really up for a challenge... come to the dark side and run Necros....

[dboeren]

Kind of bitter there about the Elves, are we? I'm not even talking Wood Elves, just Dark Elves. You know, the ones with no Wardancer, Treeman, etc...

Looking at the NAF results here: http://naf.doubleskulls.net/lrb6.html


# Race Pld W% D% L% For Ag Net Rec
1 Undead 2618 .444 .234 .322 1.29 1.09 0.20 .561
2 Amazons 1712 .436 .223 .341 1.21 1.06 0.16 .547
3 Wood Elves 2571 .443 .203 .354 1.88 1.48 0.40 .545
4 Skaven 2371 .445 .189 .367 1.79 1.48 0.32 .539
5 Chaos Dwarves 1787 .420 .220 .360 1.15 1.09 0.06 .530
6 Lizardmen 1649 .434 .189 .377 1.43 1.35 0.08 .528
7 Dwarves 2598 .410 .235 .355 1.12 1.09 0.03 .528
8 Dark Elves 2434 .425 .197 .378 1.52 1.34 0.18 .524
9 Necromantic 1385 .411 .209 .381 1.26 1.23 0.03 .515
10 Norse 2113 .401 .217 .381 1.25 1.25 -0.00 .510
11 Elves 802 .404 .196 .400 1.73 1.51 0.22 .502
12 Khemri 340 .379 .238 .382 1.03 1.19 -0.16 .499
13 Orc 3496 .374 .227 .399 1.06 1.18 -0.12 .487
14 High Elves 506 .370 .200 .431 1.63 1.59 0.04 .469
15 Chaos Pact 624 .353 .226 .421 1.09 1.32 -0.23 .466
16 Vampires 380 .387 .139 .474 1.33 1.50 -0.17 .457
17 Humans 1329 .349 .187 .464 1.25 1.49 -0.24 .442
18 Slann 451 .353 .177 .470 1.49 1.64 -0.15 .441
19 Underworld 287 .324 .213 .463 1.27 1.52 -0.24 .430
20 Nurgles Rotters 393 .308 .244 .448 0.89 1.25 -0.36 .430
21 Chaos 591 .330 .196 .474 0.98 1.37 -0.39 .428
22 Halflings 716 .243 .197 .560 0.96 1.66 -0.70 .341
23 Ogres 551 .207 .196 .597 0.72 1.71 -0.99 .305
24 Goblins 1064 .230 .148 .622 1.00 1.95 -0.95 .304
All 16384 .396 .209 .396 1.32 1.32 0.00 .500

It seems to me that Necro is only one slot below Dark Elves (so probably not a perceptible difference in challenge level) and neither one is what I'd call a power gaming team like Undead, Amazons, Wood Elves or Skaven (going by the results table).

Like the title says, I'm brand new to the game and just learning how to play well and understand a hundred different special rules is challenge enough at the moment. If starting with Chaos isn't enough to get me into the cool kids club then the bar must be really high here

[Digger Goreman]

*ruefully smiles and slowly shakes head*

Bitter... no.... I walked into my first game store in June of 1976 and have experienced a whole gamut of simple to hopelessly complex, brilliant to dumb, and well balanced to "what were they thinking" designs.... As an example, simple/brilliant/well balanced is the 1979 classic, Metagaming (Steve Jackson Games), "Ogre".... Blood Bowl falls somewhere in the middle of all this but pushes towards brilliant.... Well balanced? No... we are talking about a gw product and they never were interested in balance....

Cool kids club...? You play BB, so you're reasonably cool anyway.... Given Chaos' early limitations... make 'em play well, initially (overcoming their lack of skills) and your "cool" rating (if there is such a thing) goes up likewise....

One of my favorite books is "Lying with Statistics".... Without a volume of assumptions and qualifications, the "statistics" are basically meaningless.... And quoting sNAFu.... *sigh* ... I really don't wanna go there anytime soon....

So I'm happy you're here... like the relative challenge of taking on Chaos... and would steer you away from the Ag spamilicious, Timmyrific, sleezy crutch of playing any elves....

Feel free to return to the regularly scheduled thread as we seem off in "what's wrong with the beautiful game" land....

[dboeren]

OK, so if the NAF numbers aren't accurate where can I find information on what the tiers really are?

I'm not trying to use numbers to deceive. I just got here, so these are the only numbers I have. I also understand that tournament numbers are rather different from league numbers because they don't account for the development of the teams. It's pretty clear that each team has less of a power rating and more of a power curve with some teams starting strong and flattening off early while other teams get better further down the line.

From what I've gathered (reading online and listening to an episode of 3DB on the subject), Blood Bowl is intentionally unbalanced with the plan being to split the teams into tiers. Every so often when they revise the rules into a new set the committee argues and makes tweaks to various teams that are drifting outside their assigned tier. Is that more or less correct?

Personally, it sounds like a weird idea to me. GW is indeed renowned for poor game balance, but with the feedback system that is apparently used by the Blood Bowl community they's theoretically capable of having balanced teams. I guess I can understand having a couple of joke/advanced teams (whatever you want to call them) that you can play if you want a challenge but outside of that I don't see the point of intentionally breaking balance. That would seem to be a proclamation of "Hey guys! There are 24 teams but you should only play these 8. We thought it would be funny if we screwed over the people who liked the other 16." Now you're stuck with a bad choice. You can either play a low-Tier team and lose more, or you can play a high-Tier team and be called a weenie. Plus, if you aren't the online research type and just picked your team randomly by what models you liked you might have no idea why your team choice is being ridiculed.

Now, it might be that the Tiers only exert much effect at higher levels of play and beginners are more even no matter what they pick. Beginners wouldn't know how to exploit their advantages to full effect, skill would overpower stats, and minor faction differences sort of get lost in the noise. If so, that's fine.

I'm already getting a bashy team (Chaos). I'd like a second team so that I can demo the game to friends and to have some variety for myself. So, I'd like to get a team that's less bashy and does some passing. Not long bomb crazy passing, just Quick/Short really. What would you recommend and why?

[dboeren]

btw, not trying to attack you at all, just trying to understand this new world I'm in. What I would *like* is for all factions to be reasonably balanced so you can pick what you like, which is how it generally is in other games I'm familiar with. Balance is never 100% perfect, but so long as it's close enough any small differences are overwhelmed by player skill which is IMHO how it should be.

I also understand that Blood Bowl is a fairly casual game but in my mind you should still play to win with your chosen team. I'm a relatively competitive guy and usually win the majority of my games in any game system I'm involved in once I have some experience. I'd like to be free to fight hard without my opponent claiming that the reason I won was my cheesy team rather than good coaching.

[Pug]

I also understand that Blood Bowl is a fairly casual game but in my mind you should still play to win with your chosen team. I'm a relatively competitive guy and usually win the majority of my games in any game system I'm involved in once I have some experience. I'd like to be free to fight hard without my opponent claiming that the reason I won was my cheesy team rather than good coaching.

Ranker!

[Piousman]

The idea of the Tiers if very simple: to provide more challenge to the player. Think about the computer games you play against the AI. Do you always play on "Normal"? Or do you start with Easy and progress to Insanely Hard?

The Tiers are sort of the same. Newer players have teams that are more forgiving. The more veteran you grow, the easier it is to win with such a team, so there are other teams available that present you with more of a challenge.

Finally on the NAF rankings. The main reasons that I see them as not applicable:
* they are tournament based (as you noted). Different tournaments have different rules, from no starting skills, to ability to buy skills and assign double skills.
* not everyone plays in NAF tournaments. I would even postulate (with a complete lack of evidence) that mostly veteran BB-ers play in tournament. So not necessarily a representative sample of the average BB player.
* The NAF statistics are "to-date", not only 6th Edition (conjecture). So some teams may have more games played under different rule sets than the current on.

All that said, enjoy the game, both as a challenge to your opponent, as well as a challenge against yourself.

- Piousman

[Pug]

..what he said...

Also, teams designed (we hope ) around their theme, so stats and skills represent this...

[dboeren]

The idea of the Tiers if very simple: to provide more challenge to the player. Think about the computer games you play against the AI. Do you always play on "Normal"? Or do you start with Easy and progress to Insanely Hard?

Fair enough, although single player is often something of a different animal than Multiplayer. Then again, once in a while I take a shotgun in Call of Duty knowing I'll get slaughtered repeatedly by people with range just for the chance to get one or two sweet kills with a severe handicap

The Tiers are sort of the same. Newer players have teams that are more forgiving. The more veteran you grow, the easier it is to win with such a team, so there are other teams available that present you with more of a challenge.

So is there anywhere I can get a rough idea of the tiers for a typical player league - not skewed by being tournament driven or mostly pro-players? I'm sure this sort of information is considered rather obvious to long time players but for new folks not so much. It's easier to avoid the top shelf teams if you know which ones they are! Or is there less of a consensus that I imagine?

All that said, enjoy the game, both as a challenge to your opponent, as well as a challenge against yourself.

Good enough. I'll stick with my relatively low Tier Chaos team and play my way. If I keep getting slaughtered for a long time I'll eventually consider a slightly better team. If I'm doing well or start doing too well I'll branch out into another lower Tier team. Nurgle looks kind of interesting. I'd rather fight hard and win with a lower team than have to pull punches or breeze my way to victory every time with a top shelf one. That's actually one reason why I picked Chaos over Norse. That and I had a hard time giving up the idea of using those awesome Wendigo models...

[Piousman]

Here is an older listing under LRB4 (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=21454). I changed a few items for LRB5+ (moved DE up and CD down), and I am sure there are more suffles, but this gives you a concept:

Tier 1:
Amazon, Dark Elf, Dwarf, Human, Khemri, Lizardmen, Norse, Orc, Skaven, Undead, Wood Elf

Tier 1.5:
Chaos, Chaos Pact, Chaos Dwarf, (Pro) Elf, High Elf, Necromantic, Nurgle, Slann, Underworld,

Tier 2:
Vampire,

Tier 3:
Goblin, Ogre, Halfling

Also note that the Tiering does not reflect the experience of the team at all TV levels, but rather over the life of the team. Some teams are very strong out of the gate ('Zons and Norse) and then level off as the other teams gain skills, while others lack any skills to start (Chaos, Lizzies) and get exponentially better as they get some blocking and ball handling skills.

- Piousman

[Digger Goreman]

btw, not trying to attack you at all, just trying to understand this new world I'm in....

No worries, mate, never felt attacked.... In the past I've had to qualify and quantify my position, so I'm just used to "laying it all out" to cut to the chase.... I believe you're doing the right thing in asking follow up questions, as you'll get a darned good education from all us "veterans"....

BB went from cardboard standups and a piece together board, to metal minis and a styrofoam (astrogranite) field, to third edition with relatively good rules (some of which would still make you go ).... Fourth edition was a remake(?) by the creator of the game (Jervis Johnson) and I think most will agree that it was a major FUBAR! At some point GW even lost the rules files... and turned over the game to the BBRC (Blood Bowl Rules Committee) and the Living Rule Book process was born.... Sabotaging the process (imo) was Jervis Johnson wielding "king's privelege" and veto powers, and a stubborn partisanship (specifically, no change could get approved without 4/5 in agreement and two unnamed blighters said "no" to changing elves).... On the plus side, Tom Anders/Galakstarscraper really tried to head the game in its best direction....

The LRB process was a 2 yr cycle where accepted changes were playtested and dropped, approved, or continued in testing.... I thought it was the epitome of gaming redesign (with the previous paragraphs unfortunate exceptions) and responsible for making LRB 6.0 the best ruleset to date.... Some tired of the process... others didn't like what they saw as an "unstable" rulebook... and then it happened: GW attacked our community.... Their legal apparatus claimed IP violations on everything and dissolved the BBRC.... To say that some had placed so much time and effort and their own money/livlihood into this game, just to have their economic balls cut off, would be an understatement.... It was just another hideous, heinous, non-sensical (and unfortunately typical) gw alienation....

We were ready to see the penultimate rulebook, LRB 6.0 in all its crowning glory, since J. Johnson said he wanted this to be the last iteration.... What we got from Greedy W'nk'rs was a "for the cutthroat player" Competition Rules (Alternative) Pack... or CRAP...! Not only did the rules look like a cut and paste job by a deranged kindegartener, but all the fluff and art was GONE!!! Also, and the worst, NO CREDIT for the folks that gave up their lives for what J. Johnson recently printed in White Dwarf as being his "greatest game design"....

Very bad blood....

NAF works "hoof in claw" with the Beast and gets a well deserved from me.... Many people's mileage varies from mine and you should certainly draw your own conclusions....

Headed back to the team designs:
Rerolls (or not needing them) are king in BB... as well as select skills that either effect the blocking dice/change the rules drastically.... Every team above tier 3 (well it takes Vamps awhile to become deranged) hits a stride somewhere.... If you have initial rerolls (cheap team and especially personal ones) then you have an initial advantage.... You have to play a damned good game with Necros (for example) since you have the most expensive team rerolls, an inability to afford all your positionals without going down to ONE team reroll, no personal rerolls outside of the fragile/non-regenerating ghouls "dodge"... and no Ag 4 crutches to flit around with... and only 2x ST4 pieces.... Chaos is a solid basher with all the ST4 Ag3 Warriors and provisional St4 blitzes everywhere, but still suffer from a lack of initial "football" skills.... The 1's and 2's (Skulls/Double Downs) will hamper and bite you initially.... The armor is nice, so survivability is better than some.... Still, you should'nt be ruling the roost till after about 8-12 games.... Tough in a short league, for sure....

Long piece, short: thanks for immersing yourself in the best table top sports game, bar none...! And thanks for hanging in there with the questions.... Keep 'em coming and enjoy the info... the best in BB do hang out here....

[dboeren]

Thanks for the quick history lesson. This is (despite being a long time minis gamer) my first real dealing with anything GW. I'm aware of their obnoxious treatment of their gamers but I've never had to experience it first hand yet.

So if the LRB committee is no more as you seem to be saying, what's the road forward from here? How will the game continue to be tweaked and possibly add additional teams in the future? I suppose it may be as easy as promoting an "unofficial" rules pack and drawing up a new committee to run it but not really sure.

I'm come to understand well that each team has a power curve and that teams that start with strong initial skills will be dominant early on. There's almost certainly a level of development where the curves of the balanceable teams (ie - not the worst tiers) are closest to each other, a point of best balance, but I lack the experience to guess where that is. Any ideas? I see (for instance) that the tournament at Gencon allows a skills package of 6 skills to be chosen, with doubles skills essentially counting as two picks. My intuition is that this is a lower level of development (probably by a long shot) than the best balance point, that six skills isn't enough to let the teams with strong potential catch up with the teams with strong starting skills. So how much would it take? Twenty? More? It's a bit artificial to grant skills rather than earn them of course, and ignores the fact that some models (or indeed races) might be better at grabbing SPP and this is part of their balance.

Food for thought anyway...

For now all I have to worry about is my Wendigo/Chaos army which the Fedex tracking system says will arrive next Tuesday. I've got until then to work out a painting and basing scheme for them plus I need a team name and possibly some player names (although I'm considering making them earn their names in battle also).

Anyone got some good team name ideas?

[Pagan]

OK, so if the NAF numbers aren't accurate where can I find information on what the tiers really are?

There isn't any specific way to rank the teams as each league will have players of different skills, and if you just ask players you will get different results on what 'tier' teams are.

You're better off picking a team/race you like and going from there. Worry more about the coach you're playing next than what tier his team will be.

[Heff]

I used the wendigo as norse. be aware they are very very big. Easy to paint tho its just a dry brush from black through grey to white. have seen it done effectively as black through browns to orange as well. I distinguished the positionals by giving them different bases.

[Digger Goreman]

.... So if the LRB committee is no more as you seem to be saying, what's the road forward from here? How will the game continue to be tweaked and possibly add additional teams in the future? I suppose it may be as easy as promoting an "unofficial" rules pack and drawing up a new committee to run it but not really sure.

Basically this is it, for the foreseeable future of BB.... Everything outside LRB6 is "house rules"....

I'll try to fill in more, after work, today....