Rosters in advance....

[lunchmoney]

Lately I've seen a lot of TO's asking for rosters in advance so they can be checked.
Have tourney rules gotten so complex that TO's don't trust coaches to get it right? In general, no. There's a few which might be considered a little more complex that offers but they are rare.

When I started going to tourneys not even GW wanted stuff in advance and no local events did. TO's either checked them in the morning or through the day. Or alternatively got coaches to check an opponent's roster at the start of a match, something which is surely every coach's responsibility to make sure no one has got something wrong.

So this is the question for TO's who want rosters in advance; why?

[Jip]

I’m guessing my request this morning in the Foul Bowl thread is the straw that broke this particular camel’s back.

Foul Bowl is a weird ruleset, and we’re playing four games in one day. Being able to vet the rosters beforehand means we can just roll dice when people turn up, rather than stand around head scratching for half an hour.

Checking them in the morning takes time.

Checking them throughout the day means a coach could benefit (or suffer) from a mistake for several games before it gets picked up.

Checking them for your first round opponent relies on coaches understanding [tournament] rules as written vs. rules as intended, and also that every coach in attendance understands roster building for tournaments (new or returning coaches may not). It’s also, for me, lazy TO’ing. Come to my tournament, but do some of the organising for me. It removes ownership from the TO.

“...surely every coach's responsibility to make sure no one has got something wrong.”

Disagree. If I’m attending someone else’s tournament, the only responsibility I have (roster-wise) is ensuring that my own entry is a valid one.

Perhaps the rise in people asking to see them is as a result of the consequences of others not asking to see them? That’s not my reason, on this occasion, but it’s a possibility.

Finally, it increases buy-in. If a coach has taken the time to plan a roster and think about the tournament ruleset, it reduces the likelihood of them dropping out.

[howlinggriffon]

I don't like the option for opponents to check each other's rosters. I played a newish coach last year in the third round of a tournament and found out he'd put incorrect skills on some of his linemen as he didn't realise it was wrong. Obviously neither did the two coaches he played before me. So I would much prefer the TO or some of their trusted henchmen to check rosters.

[Darkson]

Checking them throughout the day means a coach could benefit (or suffer) from a mistake for several games before it gets picked up.

This - I (potentially*) lost a tournament win because an coach's roster was incorrect, and none of his opponents noticed it during the day.

I have to be honest and say I've never really checked an opponent's roster at an event where I should do.


Some sort of standardised NAF roster thing would be a good idea, but then when you get people that decide their race when they arrive...


I've also had at least one person decide on the morning what roster they were taking after asking around to see what others were using, which seemed to me to be gaming the system a little.


* I say 'potentially' because who knows what would have happened if the mistake had been rectified or the coach had his result struck.

[montanhas18]

Lately I've seen a lot of TO's asking for rosters in advance so they can be checked.
Have tourney rules gotten so complex that TO's don't trust coaches to get it right? In general, no. There's a few which might be considered a little more complex that offers but they are rare.

When I started going to tourneys not even GW wanted stuff in advance and no local events did. TO's either checked them in the morning or through the day. Or alternatively got coaches to check an opponent's roster at the start of a match, something which is surely every coach's responsibility to make sure no one has got something wrong.

So this is the question for TO's who want rosters in advance; why?

As a sometimes TO... I can answer this two ways:

1 - Why not? Is it really that much trouble to send the list in a few days beforehand?

2 - If I get the list earlier I can:
- Make sure someone checks all lists.
- Give players a lot of time to fix their mistakes, including adding or removing players to the roster, etc, etc.
- Hand out printed copies of the rosters at the tournament making sure everyone sees the lists in the same format and knows he/she is looking at a verified list.

Well, and make sure no one can easily change their list from round to round, or be accused of it. Or not have anyone accused of scouting the rest of the lists by delaying handing in their lists or whatever... caesar's wife, etc, etc...

I actually have the opposite question... why would a TO check a list on the check-in, in the morning of the tournament? It's last minute to fix, adds a lot of extra work on the day of the tournament... the only reason I can see not to ask for the lists beforehand to check is it you don't want to print (and stamp, if you're me) lists and hand them out. Is that it?

[lunchmoney]

To expand my question; why are TO's suddenly doing it now (for a given value of now as I've only really noticed a this happening a lot recently)?
What's changed?

[Jip]

New TOs with a different outlook (or maybe just more cynicism, ha).

New rules (from GW) meaning more need for clarity.

New or returning players on the increase, meaning more likelihood for oversights (as Darkson alludes to).

More tournaments, so more of everything (including demanding TOs).


montanhas18‘s “why not” sums it up well though.

[lunchmoney]

montanhas18‘s “why not” sums it up well though.

I have to disagree, though. I've run many tourneys and I've never checked rosters and in all that time there was only 1 that had an error (that I remember) and that was a complete rookie coach who started with a correct roster but was adding SPPs and skills. Checking in advance wouldn't have found that, an opponent in round 2 found it.
However I can think of at least 3 events, just of the top of my head, where rosters were apparently checked and I found errors when I played and checked an opponent's roster. So what was the point in "checking" them? Just wasted the TO's time.

I get the point in a complex rules thing, where mistakes are easy, but in general?

[fromherashes]

montanhas18‘s “why not” sums it up well though.

I have to disagree, though. I've run many tourneys and I've never checked rosters and in all that time there was only 1 that had an error (that I remember) and that was a complete rookie coach who started with a correct roster but was adding SPPs and skills. Checking in advance wouldn't have found that, an opponent in round 2 found it.
However I can think of at least 3 events, just of the top of my head, where rosters were apparently checked and I found errors when I played and checked an opponent's roster. So what was the point in "checking" them? Just wasted the TO's time.

I get the point in a complex rules thing, where mistakes are easy, but in general?

I check rosters for Granite Bowl, this year there were 2 with errors. I’ve yet to come across anyone reluctant to send theirs in either.

It also allows us to retrospectively look at the meta when amending the rules for the following year to see if there’s any balancing needed.

[sann0638]

montanhas18‘s “why not” sums it up well though.

I have to disagree, though. I've run many tourneys and I've never checked rosters and in all that time there was only 1 that had an error (that I remember) and that was a complete rookie coach who started with a correct roster but was adding SPPs and skills. Checking in advance wouldn't have found that, an opponent in round 2 found it.

Erm, weren't you a ref at the tournament that Darkson refers to above?

I'm in the "why not" camp, but I get the impression that you're not particularly arguing against it, just pontificating about the timing.

Personally, I'd love all rosters submitted in advance in a standard format, as per UKTC, as the analysis I did on those teams is one of the most popular stat-based things I've done.

[lunchmoney]

Erm, weren't you a ref at the tournament that Darkson refers to above?

Cant remember, dont know which tourney he's referring to.

[Jip]

...I've run many tourneys and I've never checked rosters and in all that time there was only 1 that had an error

Imagine how many you’d have found if you were checking them!

I can think of at least 3 events, just of the top of my head, where rosters were apparently checked and I found errors when I played and checked an opponent's roster.

That’s the TO’s responsibility for not checking them correctly. I agree there’s no point submitting rosters earlier if nothing (useful) is going to be done with them.

[lunchmoney]

Requesting rosters in advance could also put coaches off coming.
Take my situation for example, right now both my partner and I are unemployed with a 7 month old baby. I dont know if I can go to a tourney until Saturday morning. I may have been able to make Foul Bowl, but as you, Jip, want rosters in advance I'm automatically out.


So far I'm not convinced rosters are needed in advance, for the majority of the time.

[sann0638]

So far I'm not convinced rosters are needed in advance, for the majority of the time.

Correct. But also harmless, for the majority of the time

[TheShepherd]

We've asked for them in advance for the Star Player Showcase because we have things plan that relate to them