Lizardmen and G access

[Brokje]

Earlier on in the development of my team I did take Catch on my Skinks, but as my Sauri evolved and have at least 1 skill I dont take Catch on my Skinks anymore (I regularly loose them or sack them at 31 SPPs without stat increase or double).
With my developed Sauri I prefer to take Diving Tackle on most of them, Sure Hands on the first double, the rest Block (although I only have 1 Blodging Skink). I might try Strip Ball/Wrestle next.
As normal skill choices I tend towards Jump Up as a second one, as it promotes the speed of the little buggers, and I even might use it to Block! I dont like Sidestep in the PBEM format, so I chose it only in conjunction with Diving Tackle (and I try to pick the square in advance then, which is an option in PBEM).

Cheers!
M

[DoubleSkulls]

Especially curious if the BBRC has discussed this as an issue or concern.

This isn't on the agenda at the moment. I don't recollect it really coming up previously either. Maybe you are a lone voice in the wilderness?

With LRB5 doubles are significantly less valuable on many players than they were previously. That means player types, like Saurus, often have better options for their normal skill selection for the first two or three skills so don't give up much by ignoring them.

This means the importance of doubles to other player types (e.g. skinks) seems relatively much more so.

I do remember playing against Lizards when skinks were GA access and they were effectively unbeatable. Too many blodge stunties are just too hard to stop. I know you aren't requesting universal access but the scars are deep enough I don't want to go there again. Given that lizards perform pretty much exactly as a tier 1 team I don't see any reason to improve them.

[Circular_Logic]

I want to add support to the lone voice in the wilderness. Lizzies are a hard team to coach because their ballhandling players lack general skills. Any elven team with leap/stripball completely screws them, while sauri never gain tackle fast enough to stay up with the development of blodgers. The team lacks stripball/tackle, surehands and kick.

Based on my experience with the team it struggles as soon as the opponent knows what he is doing. There are simply too many skill-combos which are fairly common that are poison to a lizzie team:
- Block/tackle/MB kills skinks with scary efficiency
- Stripball with optional leap gives lizzies a hard time
- Guard lets opponents knock down sauri quite often
- DP is exceptionally bad, because their important players (sauri) have to be exposed to do their job

Sauri won`t get enough skills in time. Either you are outguarded OR you have no tackle OR you have no break tackle. That is if you give your sauri a nice mix of skills - you opponent will still either outguard or outdodge you, most likely both even if your sauri all have two skills.

As soon as an opponent knows how to exploit those glaring weaknesses, lizzies are NOT a tier 1 team, but tier 2 at best. Skinks are good players out of the box, but they just don`t improve alot through normal skills. Sidestep/Diving Tackle is nice to have, but you don`t mark opposing players very often with your skinks.

The team would clearly benefit from a AG3 player with G access. 7237 G dodge stunty, 8237 GA or even standard human lino 6338 G would go a long way of making lizzies a more rounded team.

[stashman]

Based on my experience with the team it struggles as soon as the opponent knows what he is doing. There are simply too many skill-combos which are fairly common that are poison to a lizzie team:
1. Block/tackle/MB kills skinks with scary efficiency
2. Stripball with optional leap gives lizzies a hard time
3. Guard lets opponents knock down sauri quite often
4. DP is exceptionally bad, because their important players (sauri) have to be exposed to do their job

1. It is to all teams!!!
2. Yes, thats one thing skinks have problems with, but all teams have their problems.
3. ??? With six ST4 players and one ST5 player it's not thats easy to bring them down!
4. Use a Sneaky Git skink to do the dirty work!

The team would clearly benefit from a AG3 player with G access. 7237 G dodge stunty, 8237 GA or even standard human lino 6338 G would go a long way of making lizzies a more rounded team.

YES! And it will be too good IMO!

You will make the lizzy team broken!

[Circular_Logic]

1. Block/tackle/MB kills skinks with scary efficiency
2. Stripball with optional leap gives lizzies a hard time
3. Guard lets opponents knock down sauri quite often
4. DP is exceptionally bad, because their important players (sauri) have to be exposed to do their job

1. It is to all teams!!!
2. Yes, thats one thing skinks have problems with, but all teams have their problems.
3. ??? With six ST4 players and one ST5 player it's not thats easy to bring them down!
4. Use a Sneaky Git skink to do the dirty work!

1. Not it`s not to that extend. MB tackle vs stunty is absolutely brutal due to the +1 inj modifier of stunty. MB vs AV7 is bad, but the chances to get the player off the field increase ALOT with an additional +1 modifier. Throw in the fact, that usually only 4-5 skinks are on the field and they are the only realistic chance for ballhandling, no other team suffers from Blockle/MB as much as lizzies.
2. All teams have the problem, that their maincarrier can`t get sure hands on a normal roll? This is only true for flings, gobbos, ogres (all intended weak teams) AND lizzies.
3. The only player that will get guard reasonably fast is the krox (for the lack of other access). That means as soon as the opponent has 2-3 guards, he can start knocking your sauri around. There are only 7 players playing the blocking game (unless you have enough faith in your luck to use skinks to mark people) on the lizzy team. You have 2-3 mobile guard (elves) or 5+ guards (human, zons, orcs.. pretty much everyone with S access on positionals) you can smack sauri around quite easily. ST4 just requires an extra assist. With guard you can do it. BoBs are such an asset, because they exist within a wall of guard, where ST4 is huge.
4. You didn`t get my point. There are very well defined foul targets (ST4+) that WILL be exposed, because it`s their job to be in touch with the opponent. Unless your star elven blitzer, you can`t just hide him. Lizzies only have 7 tough guys and they need them as long as possible and most of the time ANY removed saurus is a blow to the team. Not being able to foul back as efficiently is just ANOTHER blow ontop of being extremely vulnerable to fouls.
In LRB4 (which still IS played), those issues are greatly magnified due to the fact that skinks can`t get ANY fouling skills on normal rolls.

A no-skill human catcher is not exactly a team breaking position, but it would help to remove some of the strains from the sauri, who have to be blocker, blitzer and utililty players while being among the slowest to skill up.

[stashman]

In LRB4 (which still IS played), those issues are greatly magnified due to the fact that skinks can`t get ANY fouling skills on normal rolls.

I guess it's only played in some friendly communities and on FUMMBL.

It's up to the commissioner in a friendly community to redo the team, but in LRB 5 the team don't need any boost.

Maybe you have problems to play the team? I love my orc team, but I don't play bashers (orcs, dwarf) as good as I play skaven, darkies and woodies.

[Circular_Logic]

Well.. have 130 LRB4 games on FUMBBL under the belt with lizzies and another 70 against them. I know what I am talking about and even though I have played only few LRB5 games (local BB isn`t really strong in my city) I don`t see how lizzies recieved that major buff in LRB 5. Sauri still have troubles skilling up and needing basic skills. Skinks still don`t get the skills they need on a normal roll and have to pray for doubles.

The teams glaring weaknesses can still be exploited very effective.

[stashman]

Well.. have 130 LRB4 games on FUMBBL under the belt with lizzies and another 70 against them. I know what I am talking about and even though I have played only few LRB5 games (local BB isn`t really strong in my city) I don`t see how lizzies recieved that major buff in LRB 5. Sauri still have troubles skilling up and needing basic skills. Skinks still don`t get the skills they need on a normal roll and have to pray for doubles.

The teams glaring weaknesses can still be exploited very effective.

There isn't Claw (+2 av rolls) or Razor Sharp Claw (+2 injury rolls) anymore and DP is only +1. So the lizardmen teams survive better. And you can always field journeymen and always have atleast 11 players in a match.

http://home.worldonline.dk/nyskes/bbowl/LRB5Stats.htm

Lizarmen are around 50% winning and that is enough! LEAGUE 51.46% / NAF 53.10%

[Darkson]

Never had a problem with Lizzies under LRB4 or LRB5.
Perhaps you're not a good lizzie coach?

[Joemanji]

Lizardmen are fun and extremely competitive as they are. The only "issue" (if there is one at all) is that they start slower than many other teams. But in that they are not unique.

[SillySod]

Circ, if you genuinely think they are underpowered then I'm fairly sure its because you achieve better results with other teams - which just means that its not your team. Just watch Pippy, Britnoth, or some other major lizzie player in action and you should see that they perform well with the team, maybe worth you spectating them and seeing what they do differently.

In LRB5 lizardmen got one major buff: DP became a non-essential skill.

[Joemanji]

Skinks still don`t get the skills they need on a normal roll and have to pray for doubles.

Whilst Skinks don't get great value from normal rolls, I have still been thankful for Sure Feet or Catch on a number of occasions. Or you can take Side Step + Diving Tackle in multiples and swamp those players who escape your Saurus.

[jobular]

i think a good way to solve the problem would be to add a second skink varient, say a chameleon skink, make him more expensive (and give him catch what with the tail) then give him different access to skills


just my 2 cents, i honestly have no clue what im talking about, but i kinda don't like how few choices we have, personally i think they should have a minimum 4 choices per team.

[Andromidius]

Or you could reduce the number of Saurus to 0-4 and add 0-2 Great Crested Skinks to act as blitzers.

MA7 S3 AG3 AV7, no starting skills (but no stunty either), GA skill access.

Might be interesting.

~Andromidius