Variable skill cost

[Ravenal]

NOTE: for lazy people that think this is a wall of text, skip to the end for the conclusion ... that might get you to want to read the reasoning (bold text at the bottom of this post)

This is more like a general observation and something that might spark some ideas that make the skill aspect of the game better (I hope).

Ok, lets start by assuming that skills have two spheres of influence: offensive and defensive

/Leaving out extraordinary skills as they can't be selected by level ups

By category:
General:
Offensive: Block, dauntless, dirty player, frenzy, kick-off return, pro, strip ball, tackle, wrestle
Defensive: Block, fend, kick, pass block, shadowing, sure hands, tackle, wrestle
Skills that are both offensive and defensive: Block, tackle, wrestle

Agility:
Offensive: Catch, diving catch, Dodge, jump up, leap, sneaky git, sprint, sure feet
Defensive: Diving tackle, dodge, side step
Skills that are both offensive and defensive: dodge

Passing:
Offensive: Accurate, dump-off, HMP, Leader, NOS, Pass, Safe throw
Defensive: Dump off (which in turn makes pass and safe throw defensive too), NOS
Skills that are both offensive and defensive: Dump off, NOS

Strength:
Offensive: Break tackle, grab, guard, juggernaut, mighty blow, multiple block, piling on, strong arm
Defensive: guard, stand firm, thick skull
Skills that are both offensive and defensive: Guard

Mutation
Offensive: Big hand, claw, extra arms, horns, tentacles, two heads, VLL
Defensive: disturbing presence, foul appearance, prehensile tail, tentacles, (too obscure to include VLL here just for defending against safe throw)
Skills that are both offensive and defensive: tentacles

Another aspect of skills is the number of times they are used: Per action, per drive, per game.

By category:
General:
Block: 2x action (offense and defense)
dauntless: 1x action (diminished value if you are not targeting high ST players)
dirty player: 1x action
frenzy: 1x action
kick-off return: 1x drive
pro: 1x action
strip ball: 1x drive (sometimes multiple, sometimes never)
tackle: 2x action (offense and defense - but diminished if not used against dodge players)
wrestle: 2x action
fend: 1x action
kick. 1x drive
pass block: 1x drive (diminished value if not against passing plays)
shadowing 1x action ("forcing" the opponents action)
sure hands: 1x drive (increased value against strip ball)

Agility:
Catch: 1x drive
diving catch: 1x game (1x drive if you have HMP)
Dodge: 2x action (offense and defense)
jump up: 1x action
leap: 1x drive (1x action if you have AG4+VLL or AG5)
sneaky git: 1x action
sprint: 1x drive (1x action if sure feet too, diminished value though)
sure feet: 1x action
Diving tackle: 1x action (forcing the opponents options)
side step: 1x action

Passing:
Accurate: 1x drive
dump-off: 1x drive
HMP: 1x game
Leader: 2x game
NOS: 1x drive
Pass: 1x drive
Safe throw: 1x drive

Strength:
Break tackle: 1x action
grab: 1x action
guard: 2x action (if not more)
juggernaut: 1x drive
mighty blow: 1x action
multiple block: 1x drive (1x action on high ST players)
piling on: 1x action (diminished value though because of forcing blitz to use every turn)
strong arm: 1x drive
stand firm: 1x action
thick skull: 1x game

Mutation
Big hand: 1x drive
claw: 1x action
extra arms: 1x drive
horns: 1x action
tentacles: 1x action (forcing the opponents option)
two heads: 1x drive
VLL: 1x game (1x action with leap)
disturbing presence: 1x drive
foul appearance: 1x action
prehensile tail: 1x action (forcing the opponents option)

So, grouping by "usefulness"
2x action: Block, guard, wrestle, dodge, tackle (dodge and tackle go hand in hand here)
1x action: Dauntless, dirty player, frenzy, pro, fend, shadowing, jump up, sneaky git, leap, sprint, sure feet, diving tackle, side step, break tackle, grab, mighty blow, piling on, stand firm, claw, horns, tentacles, VLL, foul appearance, prehensile tail, multiple block
1x drive: two heads, extra arms, pass, accurate, safe throw, strong arm, multiple block, juggernaut, dump off, NOS, leap, sprint, kick-off return, strip ball, kick, pass block, sure hands
x game: Leader, diving catch, thick skull, HMP

Then there are skills that deal with freeing/securing the ball:
Securing the ball: Block, dodge, sure hands, side step, fend, dump-off, foul appearance
Freeing the ball: Block, wrestle, tackle, strip ball, dauntless, frenzy

Right, this isn't the definitive description of course ... just my observation. With this in mind its easy to see why skills like block, guard and dodge are commonly picked skills ... they are useful in most situations that present themselves in the game.

So, a logical question is: why are skills like block and guard equally valuable in TV as thick skull and kick-off return despite their obvious difference in effectiveness.

The answer should of course by that they aren't equally valuable. This leads to a split in the skill categories. At least two value sets in each category, for example:
General:
20k skills: Block, Dirty player, Fend, Frenzy, Tackle, Wrestle
10k skills: Dauntless, Kick, Kick-off return, pass block, pro, shadowing, strip ball, sure hands

Agility:
20k skills: Dodge, Sneaky git, Jump up, diving tackle, sure feet, side step
10k skills: catch, diving catch, leap, sprint

Passing:
20k skills: Dump off, NOS
10k skills: pass, accurate, HMP, Leader, Safe throw

Strength:
20k skills: break tackle, grab, guard, mighty blow, piling on, stand firm
10k skills: juggernaut, multiple block, strong arm, thick skull

Mutation:
20k skills: claw, foul appearance, horns, prehensile tail, tentacles
10k skills: big hand, disturbing presence, extra arms, two heads, VLL

Ok, this means that if a player can for example get GS on normal rolls and APM on double (storm vermin) then (double categories cost a base of +10TV more):
10k GS skills will cost +10TV
20k GS skills will cost +20TV
10k APM skills will cost +20TV
20k APM skills will cost +30TV
The option here is to select "worse" normal/double skills ... the "worse" normal skills increase your TV less than a skill increase generally does and a "worse" double skill is an option to get instead of a normal "good" skill without sacrificing TV (you still need a double to get the skill)

... so, if you made it this far and still understand what I am trying to accomplish... thank you.

[Ravenal]

Additional note, this means that you could add values to the double categories, like:

Beastman:
Normal roll G M S(+10)
Double A P(+20)

This would mean:
10k GM skill costs +10TV
20k GM skill costs +20TV
10k S skill costs +20TV
20k S skill costs +30TV
10k A skill costs +20TV
20k A skill costs +30TV
10k P skill costs +40TV
20k P skill costs +50TV

[GalakStarscraper]

I don't think the way you broke this down though really takes into effect the game changing nature that some of these skills have.

If we were doing things this way ... I'd more suggest it might look like this:

General:
20k skills: Block, Frenzy, Tackle, Wrestle, Kick, Strip Ball, Sure Hands
10k skills: Dauntless, Dirty Player, Fend, Kick-off return, Pass Block, Pro, Shadowing

Agility:
20k skills: Catch, Dodge, Jump Up, Diving Tackle, Leap, Side Step
10k skills: Diving Catch, Sneaky Git, Sprint, Sure Feet

Passing:
20k skills: Dump Off, Leader
10k skills: Accurate, Hail Mary Pass, Nerves of Steel, Pass, Safe Throw

Strength:
20k skills: Break Tackle, Guard, Mighty Blow, Piling On, Stand Firm, Strong Arm
10k skills: Grab, Juggernaut, Multiple Block, Thick Skull

Mutation:
20k skills: Claw, Foul Appearance, Horns, Prehensile Tail, Two Heads
10k skills: Big Hand, Disturbing Presence, Extra Arms, Tentacles, Very Long Legs

=====

While the way you tried to analyze ... but there are certain skills that even one or two uses a game can have major effects on the over-all game. (like Kick). Or skills that are there to develop Throwers for teams that really should not have Throwers (Strong Arm).

So the above is my modifications to your suggestions if this was something someone was trying to do.

I personally go with Ian's statement. We tried to make all the skills worth at least 20k to the right player. Some are going to be better than others. As well ... some skills are more in the game to make certain player types stand out than to be skills that might be selected for skills. Thick Skull and Disturbing Presences come to mind on this and again thats okay.

Tom

[Pagan]

10k skills: Big Hand, Disturbing Presence, Extra Arms, Tentacles, Very Long Legs

Disturbing Presence is totally a 20k skill!

I really like the idea of some skills costing more than others, but it starts to add complexity to the game where the end benefit may not be worth it.

Be really nice if skills could be valued team specific, then you could really boil it down. Enjoy trying to figure out who should pay for what with everyone's opinion(as demonstrated above), and keeping track of that.

Hail Mary Pass is all but useless for Wood Elves, but an easy choice for Goblins.

[Ravenal]

Sure the placement of the skills in the price categories is disputable, as is the true value of each skill for this and that team ... the same goes for players and teams so that is somewhat "equalized".

Skills like diving tackle are next to useless on a goblin against a dwarf (why should a dwarf dodge away from a goblin) ... while the opposite is very very very useful.

HMP is useful for goblins only if you choose diving catch for several goblins, VLL increases the value of the leap skill and so on ...

In the case of goblins, it would be interesting to see:
Goblin
Normal A
Double: G(-10), S(+10), P(+10)

Seeing a goblin with: Diving Catch, Sneaky Git, Sprint, Sure Feet, block at 100 TV ... interesting

[Ravenal]

I really like the idea of some skills costing more than others, but it starts to add complexity to the game where the end benefit may not be worth it.

If this is more complex than explaining how block assists and TZs work then don't implement this ... if it isn't, its still O(Blood bowl) :Nerdy smiley:

[mubo]

Galak's skill tiers make much more sense, they are frequently broken down like this for tournaments.

I think this may be worthwhile for 2 reasons: balance and diversity.

Guess the q is, is this too much work/bookkeeping for not a lot of extra balance/diversity?
I would be pleased to see a further + 40k on big guys with doubles, but for the rest of players not sure it would be worthwhile.

[Ravenal]

Galak's skill tiers make much more sense, they are frequently broken down like this for tournaments.

What's this skill tiers?

Guess the q is, is this too much work/bookkeeping for not a lot of extra balance/diversity?
I would be pleased to see a further + 40k on big guys with doubles, but for the rest of players not sure it would be worthwhile.

Well, in terms of stating the cost, thats easy enough, say:
Ogre:
Normal S
Double G(+10), P(+10), A(+20)

The addition of the parentheses isn't much in terms of stating the cost ... and when you pick a skill it has the added complexity, only in case of a double, of cross referencing the parentheses cost to the normal skill cost + 10k (doubles cost) + parentheses cost... add that to the TV rating of the player and be done with it. Sure, it makes double checking the TV cost slightly more difficult ... but polynomially so over knowing what the skills actually do.

That is, if you don't know what the skills do, you'll have an easier time calculating the TV than looking up the skills effects.

And like you said with the big guy doubles ... I heartily agree, I believe my example with the ogre would cover just that. Block for +40TV for example

[dodolulu]

my idea goes in a somewhat related direction, so i dont want to make an extra thread, but i hope you dont see this as thread-capturing.

i think it would be a good tool for fine-tuning teams (at higher team-values?) if you have 3 skill access categories instead of 2.

-skills you can take on a normal roll with normal cost.
-skills you can take on a normal roll with double cost.
-skills you can take on a double roll with double cost.

eg:
dont take that as a suggestion for changing any playertype, its just an example:

generic player old 6 3 3 8 GS AP
generic player new 6 3 3 8 G AS P

so it would be easier to get block&dodge for the same cost, but at the same time guard would be more expensive for this generic playertype while staying easily affordable.

[mattgslater]

Ugh.

If it's balance you're looking for, well, sorry, but you won't find it. This game is very complex: tweaks lead to unintended consequences, and big tweaks lead to big woes. In fixing one problem, you're apt to break something else.

If you want to see more skill variety, then I have four recommendations for house-rules. Except for #2 and #3 being contingent on #1, they can mostly be taken à la carte.

1) Play perpetual, or at least a long format.

2) Go back to 126, 201 and 301 for 6th, 7th and 8th improvements. Warning: this is better for some teams (High Elves) than for others (Chaos Dwarfs).

3) Increase the Spiraling Expenses threshold and/or increment.

4) Give teams a TV credit structured to counteract value on the bench. Maybe allow for a rule that says if a team has more than 12 players, the (X-12) cheapest players only add rookie value to TV. Maybe it would be cleaner to say: "Add only the twelve highest improvement values to TV."