Tilean Team?

[voyagers_uk]

Hey Xadie,

I see assassins used a lot, and effectively too. with Dodge as a skill choice they are able to effectively tie up a big guy and pose a random threat to remove him with a lucky roll...

AV7 is a no brainer to play him against
AV8 less likely to succeed but I would field him anyway
AV9 even less likely but really apart from Dwarves and a few positionals why not....

this team intrigues me.

[mattgslater]

0-2 Assassins 8/2/3/8 Shadowing, Stab GA 90K => makes him a dangerous marker, esspecially with some extra skills

Too tough. And there is no other ST2 or MA8 on this team, so it feels gimmicky to me. 7/3/3/7 80k? 6/3/3/7 70k?

Why don't we give the Gunner hail mary pass?

I was thinking that the Gunner was, you know, a real gunner. He doesn't have to have a big mighty arm, he just has to be a dead-eye shot with an incredible cool. Fortunately, in BB that's both easy to represent and fairly cheap.

I always think combining Westle with Strength Access is not a good thing, as it doesn't work that well with most of the Skills. I'm more for the traditional Block+S or Westle+A combination. Also your concept idea is to make the Tileans as Human Elves - MV5, AG2, AV9 is not very elfish, looks more like Dwarfs

That was deliberate. These aren't Elves, and they need to be tough. Ooh... you know how the Blocker was originally called a Longbeard? The Blockers could be replaced with:
0-2 Langobards: 4/3/2/9 Block, Tackle, Thick Skull GS 70k
0-1 Langobard Slayer: 5/3/2/8 Block, Dauntless, Frenzy, Thick Skull GS 90k

Apologies to any readers of Lombard descent who happen to be tall.

Duellist looks fine, but I immagine a duellist rather gracefull, so GA is pehaps a better call?

I agree.

Runner looks ok, although exchanging Nerves of Steel with diving catch might be more fitting (especially with a hail mary player in the Cockerel)

I was trying to keep that Pro Elf feeling, but that would be fun too.

OK, here's another go.

Dwarfy version
0-16 Lineman 6/3/3/8 G 50k
0-2 Longbeard 4/3/2/9 Block, Tackle, Thick Skull GS 70k
0-2 Marksman 6/3/3/8 Accurate, Nerves of Steel GP 70k
0-2 Catcher 7/3/3/7 Nerves of Steel, Diving Catch GA 80k
0-1 Assassin 7/3/3/7 Shadowing, Stab GA 80k
0-2 Duellist 7/3/3/8 Block, Side Step GA 100k
0-1 Slayer 5/3/2/8 Block, Dauntless, Frenzy, Thick Skull GS 90k
TRR: 50k
Stars: Boomer, Helmut, Grim, Zara, Griff, Morg.

Big Guy version
0-16 Lineman 6/3/3/8 G 50k
0-2 Marksman 6/3/3/8 Accurate, Nerves of Steel GP 70k
0-2 Catcher 7/3/3/7 Nerves of Steel, Diving Catch GA 80k
0-2 Assassin 7/3/3/7 Shadowing, Stab GA 80k
0-2 Duellist 7/3/3/8 Block, Side Step GA 100k
0-1 Ogre 140k
TRR: 50k
Stars: Boomer, Helmut, Zug, Zara, Griff, Morg.

Note that the Thrower passes like an elf, and the Catcher catches like an elf, but neither gets a free RR on either. Both have Nerves. If you give the Thrower HMP as an improvement, you have two guys you know can DC on a 4, no matter what, so the Marksman is actually a good candidate for HMP games.

[Xadie]

I like the Big Guy version.

0-2 Assassins 8/2/3/8 Shadowing, Stab GA 90K => makes him a dangerous marker, esspecially with some extra skills

Too tough. And there is no other ST2 or MA8 on this team, so it feels gimmicky to me. 7/3/3/7 80k? 6/3/3/7 70k?

But it would make him usable. Let's take the Dark Elf assassin Stat line for example.
6347 Shadowing, Stab GA 90K
Now this fellow doesn't sees much play. In rare cases he might be an inducement when you play against a fragile AV7 team but as a permanent player he is not desirable.

Stab on itself has a two problems:
First: replacing the players block action so you only reach those who standing next to the player OR you have to use[/waste] your blitz action for it.
Second: contrary to a block where you can knock down opponent with good likeliness or at least push him away with Stab most of the time you opponents player will remain standing and has the opportunity to act. Now bash teams loaded up with Mighty Blow and good armor will punsh and stomp that puny AV7 assassin into oblivion while agility teams will use their high agility and mobility to get away as shadowing only works well if your speed is supporior then theirs. Those MV5 and below players which on the first glance might be good victims for a shadowing MV6 player belong unfortunately to the Punch and Stomp crowd. So that is the reason why the dark elf assassin doesn't see (competetive) play.
So if you want that the Assassin sees regular play either he should be suited to mark/stab agile and bash player alike or keep the stab a gimmik and mould him to a position for other purpose like a fouler off the mill with sneaky git or dirty player pehaps, which would fit the theme of an assassin as well.

[mattgslater]

Two things:

1) MA7/Shadowing is actually worthwhile. It's not worth a skill, which is why Shadowing + Stab is priced at +30k rookie value; 10k, that is, for Shadowing. But get this guy SS, and he's mean against AV7. Or give him Dodge for all-around utility. Since he's MA7 and has Side Steppers to protect him, he's easy to skill.

2) This team gets S access players, and will have more Guard than a Dark Elf team. I guess in the big guy version that means the Duellist needs S access. 7/3/3/7 Block, SS, GAS, 100k? GAS + 2x power skill = scary. 6/3/3/8? 7/3/3/8, 120k? Or just no Dodge? That scares me a lot less.

Alternative Assassin: Maybe a little powerful as a Merc, TBH.
6/3/3/7 Jump Up, Stab GA 70k (80k?)

I still like it the other way, with MA7 Assassins; GA or GS Duellists, all the same. I think the faster Assassin acceleration will make a big difference.

Either way, the math is fun. You'll see why 70k matters on an Assassin

2x Duellist: 200k
9x Lineman: 450k
3x TRR: 150k
Subtotal: 800k

Upgrades:
0-1 Ogre: 90k
0-2 Reserve: 50k
0-1 TRR#4: 50k
0-1 Apoth: 50k
0-2 Catcher: 30k
0-2 Assassin: 20k-30k
0-2 Marksman: 20k

Packages:
Ogre, 2x Catcher, Apothecary (this is what I'd do)
Ogre, 2x Catcher, Assassin, Marksman or 2x Marksman
Ogre, 2x Catcher, 2x Assassin (70k only, unlikely even if legal)
2x Catcher, 2x Marksman, Assassin, Reserve/Apo
2x Catcher, 2x Marksman (or 1 ea if 70k Assassins), Apo, TRR#4

Unlike Humans, they lack ST2, so they don't have a dire need to run reserves.

[mattgslater]

If you want a fluffy anchor for your Assassins...

0-16 Lineman 6/3/3/8 G 50k
0-2 Dwarf Blocker 70k
0-2 Marksman 6/3/3/8 Accurate, Nerves of Steel GP 70k
0-2 Catcher 8/2/3/7 Diving Catch, Dodge, Nerves of Steel GA 80k
0-1 Assassin 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Shadowing, Stab 90k*
0-2 Duellist 7/3/3/8 Block, Dauntless, Side Step GA 120k
0-1 Ogre 140k
TRR 60k

* Or replace with a star player.

[Xadie]

2) This team gets S access players, and will have more Guard than a Dark Elf team. I guess in the big guy version that means the Duellist needs S access. 7/3/3/7 Block, SS, GAS, 100k? GAS + 2x power skill = scary. 6/3/3/8? 7/3/3/8, 120k? Or just no Dodge? That scares me a lot less.

So let's see:
Duelist with GAS could be 7/3/3/7 SS, Block 110K. Compare with WarDancer: 8/3/4/7 Block Dodge Leap GA 120K & Witch Elf 7347 Dodge Frenzy JumpUp 110K. Both have a superior stat line and more skills - the Duelist trades a wider skill access in.
" " for 100k: 7/3/3/7 Block would do very well.

Alternative Assassin: Maybe a little powerful as a Merc, TBH.
6/3/3/7 Jump Up, Stab GA 70k (80k?)

Definitely 80k. With Jump Up out of the box a worthwhile player.

0-16 Lineman 6/3/3/8 G 50k
0-2 Dwarf Blocker 70k
0-2 Marksman 6/3/3/8 Accurate, Nerves of Steel GP 70k
0-2 Catcher 8/2/3/7 Diving Catch, Dodge, Nerves of Steel GA 80k
0-1 Assassin 7/2/3/7 Dodge, Shadowing, Stab 90k*
0-2 Duellist 7/3/3/8 Block, Dauntless, Side Step GA 120k
0-1 Ogre 140k
TRR 60k

* Or replace with a star player.

Looks very good.
Duelist is fine, Catcher is fine as well, so is Marksman and Blocker.
But I'm sorry to be such a nag : the Assassin
Dodge is not as valuable as 1 point of strength, so that is not a good exchange. Give him +1 MV & -10K and i think it's a good deal. Makes 3x 8MV players on the pitch. 2 geared towards a catcher roll right from start and 1 for marking plus stabbing.

[someone2040]

Are assassins really necessary? I know it's Tilean style to be all subterfuge and stuff, but... that's kinda behind the scenes work! Like spiking peoples drinks, opponents star player gets attacked in the night. Not something Tileans really do up front and out in the open.

Don't think the Duellists need Dauntless either. A duel being a one on one, a match of skills - not something I really see them psyching up to get stronger or whatever.
To be honest, I actually think perhaps they'd look more Duellist as 7 3 3 7 Block, Sidestep 90k. They don't wear any kind of armour in warhammer, so armour 8 doesn't make sense and would slow down their movement (i.e harder to sidestep when wearing more armour, not that it really comes into bloodbowl).

[mattgslater]

Agree on all counts. My initial attempt at Assassins was underpowered because I think Assassins should be much as they are for Dark Elves: poor values, but induceable without taking Star Player spots, and a rostered one is worth considering at peak development.

I do think that all ST3 teams need some rostered mechanic to deal with bash. But yeah, an Ogre and 2x S access is enough.