Dwarfs

[Ranzadule]

I have played for a long time and mostly tell people who are complaining about Dwarfs to stop crying. After playing for a couple decades, it has finally dawned on me that dwarfs are just a little bit better. If I were to play for real money against all-comers, I would choose dwarfs. Sure there are teams that can beat them and the player matters more and at different TV, other teams shine a little more, but smart money is on the dwarfs.

Add to that the fact that there are dodge-dependent teams that simply cannot survive a matchup with dwarfs and you may be able to see the potential for a fix. I would suggest that Longbeards lose tackle and Blitzers gain tackle. That keeps Dwarfs with starting tackle, but just on two players instead of seven. I would also suggest keeping the price per player the same. Any thoughts?

[Krulfang]

I'd leave them exactly the same.

While they start with an impressive skill lineup, they are all S3 on a dedicated bash team. This balances them out in my mind, as they are dependent on assists to bash well. Your evidence for why Dwarfs are better than other teams just shows me that they're YOUR best team, not THE best team.

After all, if they were the absolute best team, even if only by a small margin, this would surely show in the NAF tourney statistics, where they ranked 4th overall. This is also likely because amazons are the top team and dwarfs are their bane.

The reason I don't think they're better than others is because when I started Blood Bowl, I was convinced I was going to go Dwarfs all the way. The nearly 4000 points of a Dwarf army I own supported this, as they are also my favorite fantasy race by a longshot. However, I was unable to do as well with them as I was with a few other teams:Orcs, Undead, Chaos, and Pact.

I still play Dwarfs. I still have a team lined up to convert for Dwarfs, where Undead ad Pact will be proxies for a while that I only play with close friends. However, if there was money on the line, I'd pick my Orcs.

[Kort]

After all, if they were the absolute best team, even if only by a small margin, this would surely show in the NAF tourney statistics, where they ranked 4th overall. This is also likely because amazons are the top team and dwarfs are their bane.

Dwarfs have a negative record against only 4 rosters: Orcs (the most popular roster, with more AV9 than Dwarfs), Chaos Dwarfs (who also have the cheesy Longbeards), Norse (Negates Block advantage) and Chaos (That one is a surprise). They have a positive record against all other teams, in particular against extremely competitive rosters Wood Elves (.515) and Undead (.524).

The only AG-oriented team that seems to resist to Dwarfs are the Slanns (Khemri also have an even record with Dwarfs). I think it just shows how one-dimensional the roster currently is.

If you take into account the fact that Orcs skew the statistics of the Dwarfs and that a resurrection tournament does not exactly favor the natural survivability of the Dwarfs, I think they are the easily second easiest team to play at low TV after Undead in a league setting. All other top teams have AV7 (Wood Elves, Skavens, Amazons, Norse).

[Dzerards]

The only AG-oriented team that seems to resist to Dwarfs are the Slanns (Khemri also have an even record with Dwarfs). I think it just shows how one-dimensional the roster currently is.

That's interesting, my Slann seem to get murderised against Dwarfs in tourneys!

[Joemanji]

Yeah, I would have thought Dwarfs would destroy Slann. Sure Hands + Guard negates most of the leaping tricks.

[Greyhound]

On the other end the only way the dwarf can stop fast teams is by making a strong line which the opposition struggle to break through.

The leapers pretty much ignore any strong line,

[Dzerards]

I don't think Dwarfs work by stopping other teams scoring, well scoring once at least. It's getting the ball back off them again to prevent the 2-1 grind that is the problem.

In a league, against Dwarfs, you induce a wizard and most of the time they're sunk. They can't chase a game. That's why they have to be played so conservatively.

[Greyhound]

although I'm not advocating a change on the dwarf roster, I always wondered what they would have been like if they started with Guard rather then block.

1) fluff wise, it is fair I believe, as it represent their ability at working and fighting together as a unit
2) concept wise it separates them from the norse a lot more and they would be absolutely unique in the game
3) less chance of destroying stunty teams at the start, works as well against zons
4) as they develop they would be similar (although not identical) to the current roster since Guard is often picked while now it would be Block.
5) less MB

As a less radical change Blitzers/Troll slayers could keep block and only the linos would swap for guard.

[Dzerards]

I saw a topic a few years back that suggested the Dwarf Blockers drop Block and Tackle and get Stand Firm, while the Chaos Dwarf Blockers get Grab instead of Blackle.

But at the end of the day their win rate in leagues isn't broken any more I believe. That said I haven't seen any stats to say if the increase in RR cost brought them back into the 45-55% win bracket yet either. They're powerful at the start of leagues and in tourneys, but fend, claw, wrestle and wizards, not to mention chainsaws, counteract them very well over a longer time. Not to mention the boredom threshold of who ever is playing with them.

[Kort]

I saw a topic a few years back that suggested the Dwarf Blockers drop Block and Tackle and get Stand Firm, while the Chaos Dwarf Blockers get Grab instead of Blackle.

But at the end of the day their win rate in leagues isn't broken any more I believe. That said I haven't seen any stats to say if the increase in RR cost brought them back into the 45-55% win bracket yet either. They're powerful at the start of leagues and in tourneys, but fend, claw, wrestle and wizards, not to mention chainsaws, counteract them very well over a longer time. Not to mention the boredom threshold of who ever is playing with them.

It is perhaps too early to draw a conclusion but their win rate has remained the same according to the NAF stats (.54) and plasmoid's stats relative to leagues show a slight decrease from .59 to .56.

I really wish that such a boring team would be less competitive. I do not mind Norse, Skaven or Undead being at the top because at least they have some character.

[Void]

Dwarfs are very competitive at low TV, at 1000 TV they are virtually perfect with no crucial skills missing. When other teams really benefit form level-ups (like Chaos) Dwarfs get some minor benefits.
Death Roller as a secret weapon is a TV bloat.
I like them the way they are.

[Smurf]

Dwarves have a few major problems:

1. Wrestle will throw them on the floor and that MA4 really slows them down.
2. Clawed players can wipe the smiles of the armoured nuts
3. Most of their players have AG2 which concentrates their AG3s to ball handlers.
4. They can be slow to progress
5. Progression is rather predictable

They are seriously out paced, even Halflings and Snotlings can put a gap between the blockers meaning that the Dwarven speed kings will have to step up. Although lacking block the Orc line up will stand up to bashing from the Dwarves. Their Chaos Cousins can give them trouble too.

Now the Dwarves are good and like all teams they have strengths and weaknesses.

[bouf]

I saw a topic a few years back that suggested the Dwarf Blockers drop Block and Tackle and get Stand Firm, while the Chaos Dwarf Blockers get Grab instead of Blackle.

viewtopic.php?t=22951

Necromancy in effect!
RISE my child! RISE!!!

[plasmoid]

I just had to reply:
Smurf said:

Dwarves have a few major problems:
1. Wrestle will throw them on the floor and that MA4 really slows them down.

Doesn't exactly sound major.

2. Clawed players can wipe the smiles of the armoured nuts

Like most players.
But dwarfs start with the 2 best skills for stopping chaos killers (claw, mighty, piling on) - block and thick skull.
Add Fend for 3 guys on the LOS and you're in more than decent shape.

3. Most of their players have AG2 which concentrates their AG3s to ball handlers.

Some coaches don't consider min/maxing a problem.
They're not exactly khemri.

4. They can be slow to progress

I believe data collection on fumbbl has shown that block causes cas' just as fast as mighty blow.
And they rarely get reset to 0SPPs.

5. Progression is rather predictable

Power usually is.

Dwarfs rock.