Bashing Elf

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:03 pm

SillySod,

I am going to agree to disagree with you about FUMBBL being applicable to LRB 5.0 results. My experience is that even small differences in TV (100-300k) are often encountered in any league,.

ESPECIALLY in LRB 5 where injured players and treasury don't count towards TV. As a matter of fact, just because two teams have close TR's in LRB 4 doesn't mean they have close TV's in LRB 5. It can easily be off by 500k!

Sorry, just too many assumptions in the argument for it to be compelling in my view.

SillySod · Post by **SillySod** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:50 am

FUMBBL uses a different system to rate teams called Team Strength (TS). While it isnt perfect it is pretty close to accurately analysing how good one team is compared to another. All FUMBBL [R]anked play uses TS as the benchmark of teams rather than TR except in tournaments where TR capping is often used (and where few teams enter with multiple injuries). You might find that TV and TS arent so very far apart.

The system does have some flaws however, the most glaring of which are in rating Halfling teams which are monstrously undervalued when developed. Ignoring Halfling freakishness the main problems with the system stem from a certain proportion of people who arent inclined to play even or challenging games.... naturally this skews their win % quite a bit. Fortunately FUMBBL is probably big enough that the tier 1 races are evenly distributed between the cherry pickers and the coaches that challenge themselves. I'm curious to know what problems MBBL has of the same nature being a similar open league itself (albeit a much smaller one)

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:37 pm

I just checked MBBL stats. Dark Elves are 3rd from top in games played. They're sixth in number of teams playing out of 25 races that can be taken. They're 5th from the bottom in wininng percentage, 43.33%. The next higher team is a full percentage point ahead of them at 44.26 which are Amazons. The only teams below them are Vampire, Ogres, Goblins and Halflings. Even the Brettonians and Necromantics are ahead of them.

Now, I'm not saying that Dark Elves should be morphed into the greatest team in the league right out of the box. But they really could use a tweak or two to at least be competative. Runners with Sure Hands or Witches with Strength access would not put the team over the top, but it sure would help get them going.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:25 pm

From LRB5:

These more challenging teams are: Chaos, Dark Elf, Goblin, Halfling, Nurgle, Ogre and Vampire. Coaches should be aware that these are considered teams for more advanced players and can be confusing or difficult to use if you are new to the game.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:07 am

SillySod wrote:FUMBBL uses a different system...

Like I said, agree to disagree here

It's not like I think you are crazy, misinformed, or an idiot. I just have a different opinion about applying this data.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 3:17 pm

whitetiger wrote: The next higher team is a full percentage point ahead of them at 44.26 which are Amazons.

1% differences are not generally considered to be statistically significant in MBBL data.

For example Khemri were a full 5% clear of the rest of the field before they were considered worthy of a nerf (and that was as much for their casualty causing ability as their win rate).

Circular_Logic · Post by **Circular_Logic** » Fri May 02, 2008 7:36 am

Darkelves suffer from being the slowest elves. Those MA8+ positionals go a loooong way in outrunning a more bashy team. Against experience bashers it`s way harder to score reliably with DE than with HE (the closest team). Darkelves would have to rely on spreading out the play over the whole half and then going for the shortpass/handoff. That would usually take more time than the 2 turns needed for other elves.

The addition of the assassin (specialized against low AV teams) and the switch to a runner further weakened their options vs bashers. Now the passing play is riskier and demands for a more experienced runner compared to your standard accurate/safe throw thrower. The runner is only good against light hitting fast teams, where your runner is more likely to be hit (say by those freaky wardancers) and dumpoff/NoS can save the day.

The team has narrowed and is better in engaging skaven/elves and has become even worse against strong teams.

Suggestion:
Move the assisin to a positional, that is siuted against high AV-opponents. Let this nasty dagger be represented by the claw/MB combo, bringing the assasin to:
6347 claw MB GA/PS

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:25 am

Circular_Logic wrote: Suggestion:
Move the assisin to a positional, that is siuted against high AV-opponents. Let this nasty dagger be represented by the claw/MB combo, bringing the assasin to:
6347 claw MB GA/PS

Well, I noticed that you didn't put a price on this. Or number allowed.

So 0-1 160k (the highest non-star price).

And even then I'm not sure that it isn't horribly overpowered on a AG4 player who will get the skills (like Block & Dauntless).

Bad idea.

Unless of course the dryness of the wit didn't translate, then my apologies.

Circular_Logic · Post by **Circular_Logic** » Fri May 02, 2008 11:37 am

I would have put him at 0-1 and 110k and of course the MB is open for discussion.

I just can see claw on Darkelves in some non-mutation kind of way (e.g. dagger) to focus them on the bashy side of play, giving them some hitting power against high AV teams.

0-2 6347 claw GA/SP 90k

would be possible, too. Pro-Elf linos with claws - 90k seems about right.

I just included MB in my initial suggestion to make it better out of the box and I intentionally didn`t put pricing and slot numbers there.

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Fri May 02, 2008 12:00 pm

Now there you go. At least DE would have something to go after the bash team's Big Guys with.

Andromidius · Post by **Andromidius** » Fri May 02, 2008 1:48 pm

I don't think that's a good idea. He'll rack up casaulties like no tomorrow, and get a ton of SPP's and swiftly become utterly unstoppable.

~Andromidius

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri May 02, 2008 5:59 pm

If the assassin gained claw and lost stab, that would be a better piece. Not sure how fluffy it would be, but I'm sure it wouldn't overpower Dark Elves or anything.

6 3 4 7 Shadowing, Claw GA/SP 90k would be worthy of playtest.

Mighty Blow should be right out. Two skills which stack like that are undesirable on a starting player.

spubbbba · Post by **spubbbba** » Sat May 03, 2008 12:47 am

stashman wrote:From LRB5:

These more challenging teams are: Chaos, Dark Elf, Goblin, Halfling, Nurgle, Ogre and Vampire. Coaches should be aware that these are considered teams for more advanced players and can be confusing or difficult to use if you are new to the game.

I didn't understand this when I saw it.

Why do they say Dark Elves are hard to use? I'd say Pro and Wood Elves are a lot trickier for new players as they die so easily, Dark elves have plenty of AV8 and are the most flexible of the elven teams since they can bash a bit as they are. If anything Khemri should be in there as they are a really weak team when it comes to winning and not all that good at bashing.

I really don't think Dark Elves need to be changed ST4 and AV9 are both right out. Assassins and Runners do need some sort of tweak, as at the moment by far th best team is 4 blitzers, a witch elf or 2 once you have a full squad some re-rolls and an apoth and the rest linos.

Daefaroth · Post by **Daefaroth** » Sat May 03, 2008 1:25 am

I believe Dark Elves are on the advanced list for the number of rostered specialized skills (stab, shadowing)

whitetiger · Post by **whitetiger** » Mon May 05, 2008 2:12 pm

Dark Elves are on the special list because they lose a lot. They've got a just over 40% win rate in MBBL. The runners aren't a very good positional out of the gate, and Assassins are so specialized they're hardly worth taking.

The linos are decent but expensive, Witch Elves are a must have but are 7 AV and die a lot, the only truly saving grace is 4 blitzers.