Replacement idea for Khemri

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:31 pm

Keep Khemri like this and there will be a good balance:

"Old School" Khemri
0-16 Skeleton 5 3 2 7 Regenerate G 30K
0-4 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Regenerate, Mighty Blow S 110K
Rerolls: 70K

A new team can look like this:

4 mummy
9 skeleton
4 rerolls
1 fan factor

have to develop your own sure hands boys and blitzers.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:20 pm

Now that is an idea.

Blammaham · Post by **Blammaham** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 8:58 pm

Capital.S.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:36 pm

I think 2-position rosters are, as a rule, boring. That's not an unbalanced roster (if anything, it's second-tier, and that's ok), but it doesn't sparkle enough for me. Also, I'm bringing Skels to 40k on principle, as I'm one of the six people who thinks that they're as good a buy at 30k as Zombies and I don't think that should happen (yes, at 40k they are inferior to 40k Zombies, but at 30k they're at least as cool as 30k Zombies, which is to say too damn good; this is because AV is not important when you cost 30k... especially when you Regenerate and aren't Stunty).

I'm also toying with giving Necromantic teams 60k RRs as an alternative to dropping Golems to 100k (which seems too cheap to this old Orc coach). The way these guys end up balancing out will have a huge impact on that.

I'm starting to think that the first Tomb Priest is a dead-ender and a problem waiting to happen. He'll either be broken or useless (I'm guessing the latter). The second one, however, seems intriguing. He's not as good a deal as a Human Thrower, but his role on the team is clear and his skills are usable both in his role and in service to his team. His comparison to the Ghoul is maybe a tad favorable: perhaps he should be 80k? Then with option Y on the Tomb Guardian, we have:

0-16 Skels @ 40k
0-2 Mummies @ 110k
0-2 Tomb Priests @ 80k: 6/3/3/8 Disturbing Presence, Nerves of Steel, GP
0-2 Tomb Guardians @ 90k: 5/3/2/9 Block, Jump Up, Regenerate, GS
Necromancer/no Apoth
RRs: 60k or 70k?
Options: 1-2 TGs, 1-2 TPs, 1 Mummy, 1 Assassin, 1 Star Player

So the math at a million (the only number that matters here):
11x player: minimum 440k
3x RR (bare min here): 180k OR 210k
Subtotal: 620k or 650k
Remainder: 350 - 380k

Upgrades (x10k):
Reserve: 4
TP: 4
TG: 5
Mummy: 7
RR: 6 or 7

More options at 60k RRs, for sure. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Should I allow instead of a Mummy some superior version as an option? What would a "High Priest" star player look like? Maybe that would be a good house for Hypnotic Gaze (and AG4, for that matter), like Count Luthor with more skills and a lower ST.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:00 am

Well I wen't back into the past, all the way to 2nd ED.

A Khemri team, with mummies and skeletons (mostly former humans).

Khemri
0-16 Lineman 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Thick Skull G 40K
0-2 Catcher 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Thick Skull, Sure Feet, Catch GA 60K
0-2 Thrower 5 3 2 7 Regenerate, Thick Skull, Sure Hands, Pass GP 60K
0-4 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Regenerate, Mighty Blow S 110K

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 12:20 am

See, if Khemri looked like that, nobody'd be complaining and this thread wouldn't exist. I like that roster, Stashman, but I think I know generally what kind of road I want to go down and just want to make sure I'm not toying too much with game balance.

I'm worried that the Human lino stats of the Tomb Priest will make them non-fun. That was one thing I didn't fear with the Gaze/AV7 profile, but you guys (rightly) pointed out what a grab-bag effect Gaze has on game balance. Ghouls (and HG/NoS Hobs) are bona fide catchers, while these guys are more Thrower-y, with a nice little Safety effect in the form of Disturbing Presence. Is that going to seem really lame in practice? Would that be a bad thing if it did? Should they have A access or some similar bennie?

BloodBowlGuy · Post by **BloodBowlGuy** » Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:49 am

I remember that old Khemri team. i wonder why they never just "converted that roster into the new one...or one very similar to it. I like the idea if a skeleton catcher..even with AG 2. At least the trower have someone to pass to. The four mummies might not seem as powerful with no blitzers on the team.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:30 am

BloodBowlGuy wrote:I remember that old Khemri team. i wonder why they never just "converted that roster into the new one...or one very similar to it. I like the idea if a skeleton catcher..even with AG 2. At least the trower have someone to pass to. The four mummies might not seem as powerful with no blitzers on the team.

viewtopic.php?t=24301

Maleficum · Post by **Maleficum** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:03 pm

Jural wrote:I've always liked this roster (I may not have it exactly, but it was proposed during PBBL testing.)

0-1 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow Regenerate 110k
0-4 Tomb guardians 5 4 2 8 Regen Break Tackle GS
0-16 Skeletons thick skull
0-2 Run-Ra's 6 3 2 7 Sure Hands, thick skull GP

Plenty of Strength. Plenty of Skeletons.

Agreed, that's a nice roster. I too am of the opinion that ST5 players should have 'mighty blow'.

landrover · Post by **landrover** » Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:37 pm

Fact: LRB4 or 5 (pre rules review) Khemri are usually right up there with the best of them in terms of cas and sheer destructiveness.

Fact: Lots of coaches hated them for a variety of reasons, but this appears to be one of the majors.

Fact: The changes made in the '07 RR have gone a long way to reducing the hitting ability of the mummies/tomb guardians.

But fact: TGs can still skill up to the MB/Block route, it will just take them longer to do so.

I have played Khemri in leagues and tourneys and IMHO they are a lot of fun. Sure you can (sometimes) destroy the opponent's team, but more often than not you finish up clustered around the ball as you spend 5 turns trying to pick the damn thing up.

If anyone wants the Khemri radically altered, please come up with an alternative, submit it to the Rules Review comittee and get it accepted. Until then, just like all of the "dwarves-are-broken" coaches (of which I am one), please, we're all aware of your sometimes vitriolic opinions, why not band together and make up that new Khemri team?

wollfe · Post by **wollfe** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:54 pm

i dunno bout the issues that much - our league only has one khemri team and they aren't running away with the title

but the problem does seem to be the fact that they have 4 st5 guys - who aren't big guys

maybe you could just follow the orky route of turning the tomb Guardians ala rules review into Mv5 st4 ag2 av9 break tackle - maybe mv4 if mv5 is too fast -maybe limit position to 2???

and allow a single mummy at the mv3 st5 stat -though maybe 2 would be better

i think this is the simplest way to change/balance the team - i believe that radical changes only lead to unbalanced lists - keep changes small and simple

plus lets not penalize people who own 4 mummies for their khemri teams

Warpstone · Post by **Warpstone** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:10 pm

Given that JJ has stated that Khemri roster must keep 4 x ST5 players, I think rosters like the above are simply dead in the water.

Further, the experimental roster is a remarkably good upgrade. It keeps the Khemri flavour but seriously hampers the ability for a team to be a long-term juggernaut. A max of AV8 on the roster makes a world of difference and makes fouling mummies a fun and rewarding action.

Maybe the experimental roster isn't perfect, but it's tremendously better than the LRB5 roster and I have yet to see a proposed roster that navigates the Khemri design minefield (must have 4 mummies, facilitates player turnover, slows down team advancement) as well. I know everyone has their own pet roster suggestions, but when the issues with a roster are as clear as they have become with the Khemri, I think it makes more sense to go the compromise route that the experimental roster takes than to go back to re-imagining the whole roster from scratch.

wollfe · Post by **wollfe** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:33 pm

Warpstone wrote:Given that JJ has stated that Khemri roster must keep 4 x ST5 players, I think rosters like the above are simply dead in the water.

and that is quite possibly the biggest problem i can think of - i know that without JJ we wouldn't have this great game - and thank you JJ for a great game

But demanding that certain things have to be a certain way, and then involving the community kinda feels like - i dunno - that its pointless making suggestions

as you said most of the ideas are going to be rejected straight away cos they don't have the 4xst5 guys - which i still think is the reason why you cant balance the list in a meaningful way

but i'm still hoping to be proven wrong

p.s. i am not having a go at anyone - its just that forums are great for misunderstandings and misinterpreting what someones trying to say

coma · Post by **coma** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:48 pm

I like the changes on the skeletons but not on the mummys. Less armor for a smaller penny - fine if you need the mummys to be cheaper due to more pricey skeletons. But do not touch the mighty blow, who needs a MA 3 character with break tackle?

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:01 pm

Seeing them play, I've been convinced of the opposite. The less movement a strong player has, the greater its need for BT. An impregnable cage that can't move is not going to score. A cage that takes a while to crack but moves 3 sqaures closer to a TD every turn might actually score.

I'd take BT on all my sauruses, for sure.