New skill - Perfect Spiral

[Warpstone]

You guys need Plasmoid to find some stats about passing in LRB5. How much is it attempted? Is it a main strategy? etc and so on. If there's lots of negative feedback, maybe this should be added.

It's a good idea but really hard to implement: I can't think of any LRB5 league keeping meaningful passing data besides completion totals. And we all know that completions don't really reflect a bonafide passing game since so many of them are made as SPP boosts in garbage time.

I think the general consensus though is that there is not much meaningful passing going on and a mild passing buff might help to make BB resemble modern football more than a pure rugby scrum. I think the best path to encouraging more passing attempts would be to help reduce the chance of catastrophic failure--players with Safe Throw only fumble the pass on an unmodified 1--rather than increase chances of catching a pass. This helps teams who want to commit to a long passing attack suffer less turnovers deep in their end, but it does not make the mistake of making completions more likely. As such, it works for both Agile and Bashy alike.

Basically, the passing buff should encourage more balls in the air, but should not lead to a more efficient passing game as this will royally screw up game balance (i.e. the above bull centaur example. Heck can you imagine Mummies being able to catch on a 4+!).

[stashman]

Accurate and Strong Arm will do the trick for the Passer

The New Diving Catch will do the trick for the Catcher


This will even get the orcs to play passing game and use a goblin with diving catch and maybe take it on a double for a blitzer.

I hope the Diving Catch changes so it will be like an "accurate" thing on the reciever.

[Mad Jackal]

Accurate and Strong Arm will do the trick for the Passer

The New Diving Catch will do the trick for the Catcher


This will even get the orcs to play passing game and use a goblin with diving catch and maybe take it on a double for a blitzer.

I hope the Diving Catch changes so it will be like an "accurate" thing on the reciever.

Right. Orcs do need a boost. That way people will stop complaining about Wood Elves and Khemri.

[SillySod]

What if it were an AG skill? the +1 doesn't help elves, and it would be a good doubles roll for an AG 3 thrower.

Oh, and it would really open up the playbooks for some of the AG 3 teams with no dedicated thrower.

Heck, my Chaos dwarves could build a passing game to my bull centaurs this way!

Hmm, I think I just explained why this is a bad idea

That works the same if you get diving catch.... except that you have to make far more rolls if it were a passing skill...

No its not the same. Perfect Spiral would give BOTH Bull Centaurs this ability. Diving Catch would need taken twice to get the same benefit.

Galak

Depends, for a start the ammendment to make it work on a 4+ only would make perfect spiral blatently worse. Also is it harder to roll a doubles with your bulls or with that +AG hobgoblin?

Plus of course.... the thrower has to be pretty good already before it becomes sensible to throw to the bull rather than just picking up with the bull.

[Aliboon]

Depends, for a start the ammendment to make it work on a 4+ only would make perfect spiral blatently worse. Also is it harder to roll a doubles with your bulls or with that +AG hobgoblin?

I think Galak was using the bull centaurs and CDs as the example as it was there.

An orc thrower passing to one of 4 blitzers or 4 gobbos would mean that perfect spiral (on a 4+) would have the effect of 8 DTs...

[GalakStarscraper]

I think the best path to encouraging more passing attempts would be to help reduce the chance of catastrophic failure--players with Safe Throw only fumble the pass on an unmodified 1--rather than increase chances of catching a pass.

I agree somewhat. An unmodified 1 is TOO much punting. Have it be a 2+ unmodified roll that allows you to hang onto the ball (ie ignore the fumble result) that you can only do if you have not re-rolled the original pass roll. That would work really well in my opinion and be a great addition to the Safe Throw skill.

Galak

[plasmoid]

Sounds a lot like the idea hammered out in Boufs thread from a while back.
IIRC, that was pitched as either a straight AG check or a 4+ (whichever roll was required to do safe throw's main ability).

I like that better than the perfect spiral skill.

Cheers
Martin

[Mad Jackal]

I think Galak was using the bull centaurs and CDs as the example as it was there.

An orc thrower passing to one of 4 blitzers or 4 gobbos would mean that perfect spiral (on a 4+) would have the effect of 8 DTs...

Yes, but you are also forgetting the rest of the players on the pitch and team

So really the statement is that taking 1 perfect spiral is like taking 15 diving catches.. and having 10 of them on the pitch to start each drive.

(And I agree.)

[Warpstone]

Have it be a 2+ unmodified roll that allows you to hang onto the ball (ie ignore the fumble result) that you can only do if you have not re-rolled the original pass roll.

Sure, that works for me. I like the dilemma posed by choosing whether to risk the Pass reroll or stay safe.

This ability is the sort of tipping point that would make me build a dedicated thrower on a bashy/running team. I can live with throwing an incompletion downfield compared to running to avoid a sack.

[SillySod]

I think Galak was using the bull centaurs and CDs as the example as it was there.

An orc thrower passing to one of 4 blitzers or 4 gobbos would mean that perfect spiral (on a 4+) would have the effect of 8 DTs...

Yes, but you are also forgetting the rest of the players on the pitch and team

So really the statement is that taking 1 perfect spiral is like taking 15 diving catches.. and having 10 of them on the pitch to start each drive.

(And I agree.)

I know but there are a few things that are worth noting...
- not every player is going to be desirable to pass to
- perfect spiral dosent have the redundancy of 15 Diving Catchers
- modified (4+ only) perfect spiral is less reliable than Diving Catch

I like the power of this skill although I think its being somewhat overegged with BS arguments. Notice that catch is very rarely taken while pass is a first rate choice - this is precisely because it lets you throw to anyone or anywhere rather than being circumstancial. To an extent people seem scared by a potential change of dynamic in the game.... thats precisely the point.

Just to be clear I'd be happy with the change to diving catch but I'd much prefer this because it encourages inventive play in a way that DC dosent. Having both skills might be interesting - perhaps Khemri might even get themselves a passing play

[DoubleSkulls]

+1 to catch is about giving the AG3 passing teams (in particular humans, but also 'zons and Norse) a much more viable development path so they don't have to bash as much. It isn't that useful to AG4 catchers, as you'd need to be marked or have rain to make it worth taking.

+1 to catch from a thrower is just a great skill for a passing team which I'd probably take immediately after accurate in many instances.

[Warpstone]

I know but there are a few things that are worth noting...
- not every player is going to be desirable to pass to
- perfect spiral dosent have the redundancy of 15 Diving Catchers
- modified (4+ only) perfect spiral is less reliable than Diving Catch

I like the power of this skill although I think its being somewhat overegged with BS arguments. Notice that catch is very rarely taken while pass is a first rate choice - this is precisely because it lets you throw to anyone or anywhere rather than being circumstancial. To an extent people seem scared by a potential change of dynamic in the game.... thats precisely the point.

And that's the fundamental problem: aside from Leader, skills are not designed to have a global effect. In a sense, Skills are supposed to be redundant. Yes that redundancy is primarily for game balance, but it also makes sporting sense: a good passer doesn't turn crap receivers into decent ones and a team that commits to an aerial attack should invest in skillful receivers.

Yes, many players are not desirable to pass to, but that's the point. It's hard enough to man-mark two or three receivers and apply some pressure on the thrower. Having 10 possible receivers that need to be covered will increase the blocking mismatches available to a bashy offence. The last thing we need is another tactic to increase the amount of block dice a strong offence can roll.

[GalakStarscraper]

- modified (4+ only) perfect spiral is less reliable than Diving Catch

Yeah ... but the problem you have here SillySod is that Jervis tends to veto ANY new skill that adds a dice roll to the game.

So adding a 4+ to make Perfect Spiral work would never make it past the man in charge.

Jervis's current opinion is that if it needs to add a dice roll ... its probably not needed for the game.

None of the proposals the BBRC is considering in this year's review add a new dice roll to the game.

Galak

[Marcus]

Suggestion:

Perfect spiral provides a +1 to the catch roll when the thrower rolls an unmodified 6 on the pass roll.

[DoubleSkulls]

Suggestion:

Perfect spiral provides a +1 to the catch roll when the thrower rolls an unmodified 6 on the pass roll.

Would you ever take that skill? When I've got Accurate, Safe Throw, KoR, Leader & NoS etc to choose from in the passing section (and no one has just passing do they?) I can't see that being worth taking.

In combination with another attribute it might be an idea.