Proposal of a new team

[Kort]

The team seems ready for playtest. The minor issue I could be concerned about is the power of the non-Big Guy Throw Teammate, but that remains to be seen. The rest of the team is either average or slightly subpar.

[skinlee78]

I used the Jervis Johson Blood Bowl Player Cost Formula

Now, the cost doesn't look very right to me.

• MA ST AG AV Skills SkillPts MAPts STPts AGPts AVPts TotalPoints Computed Cost ActualBB Cost PlayerDiscount
  Dryad 5 3 2 8 Thick Skull 1 -1 0 -2 0 3 30 50 -20
  Ent Thrower 6 3 3 8 Sure Hands, Pass, Thick Skull 4 0 0 0 0 9 90 80 10
  Saproling 7 2 3 7 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty 4 1 -3 0 -2 5 50 70 -20
  Dendroid Warrior 3 5 1 9 Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate 5 -3 9 -4 1 13 130 120 10

Not sure what is a good decision right now. Should i go for increasing the players, or lower the costs?

Dryad are 20k to expensive > (Add Tackle or Higher Ag to 3?)
Ent Thrower 10K to cheap
Saproling 20k to expensive
Dendroid Warrior 10k to cheap

With the other 3, or make all 3 as computed, or keep as is all together?

[Aliboon]

I wouldn't worry too much about Jervis's costings-things have changed a bit since he wrote it. Zombies (and skellingtons) used to be 30k, but playtesting found that they were too cheap, so zombies were increased to 40k, but then skellies were thought too cheap, so a weak skill was added (thick skull) and their price was increased to 40k. But having said that, Dryads are likely too expensive @ 50k as they are like a AV8 skelly without regen', so 40k might be more appropriate.

Saprolings are maybe too expensive, but the others I think are ok as you're costing Thick Skull at 10k, it isn't worth that. It is the team that needs to ba balanced, not necessarily a particular player.

[Thadrin]

I really like both the concept and execution of this team. Would have made a cracking House Rules article for one of Granny's publications had they survived.

Potential Minis for this team:
Shadowforge Dryads - (these would be as Saprolings or Linemen)


Impact! miniatures - (probably for use as Throwers)
http://www.impactminiatures.com/index.p ... =timberelf
Reaper Miniatures - (Warriors?)

(they do a box of 9 too...linemen? http://www.reapermini.com/OnlineStore/tree/latest/06202 )
Privateer Press -

(Buy three of these and you can use the Sentry stones as Reroll counters!)

(potential as your ST5 guys? there's a bigger version, probably too big for BB)
Hasslefree miniatures - (a slightly different take on the concept, but could fit the "forest" theme. Sould see them as your Saprolings)

[skinlee78]

My friend had the whole team already created few years back, but unfortunattely i don't have any images of that team

I remember for the linemen he used converted small treeman from warhammer, but i can't find them online (didn't search very much for it btw).
Your dryads seems very cool for the job. I would use the ones:



The Dendroid Warrior seems alright with your proposal:


I think i would use the same figures for ent throwers as used for the dryads. Only converted with a ball, and it should be alright.
The image u use for the thrower can be a good one i think:



For saproling, i don't see a nice figure you propose unfortunattely, they seems a bit to modern to me.

[Xadie]

Hi skinlee78,

the idea and concept is appealing and I appreciate your efforts to make the team work. But please allow me to give some feedback:

TREEMAN TEAMS
Qty. Title Cost MA ST AG AV Picks Skills
0-16 Dryad 50,000 5 3 2 8 G Thick Skull
0-2 Ent Thrower 80,000 6 3 3 8 G,P Sure Hands, Pass, Thick Skull
0-4 Saproling 70,000 7 2 3 7 A Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty (General skill removed)
0-2 Dendroid Warrior 120,000 3 5 1 9 S Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate (Block removed, General skill removed)
Tree Surgeon: 50K (Apo) With thanks to IronJaw
Re-Roll: 60K

Right now the Team is not real competitive. As the Cockerel has some likeness to the undead one I will compare the treekin mainly with them:

Dryad is basically a Skeleton with AV+1 -reg +10k or a Zombie with MA +1 +thick skull +10k -reg. Their price tag seems ok. They're definitely not good but just about ok as in the 50k region we have the human linemen with 6/3/3/8 which is way better then the dryad.
It is quite a dilemma for 40k they would be very good and at 50k their rather below average.

Ent Thrower has no equivalent in the undead Cockerel but looks very much like a human thrower with Thick Skull and a +10k pricetag which is ok - quite sturdy thrower, but with AG3 also expensive.

Saproling are like ghouls just way more squishy and they can be thrown (-1ST, -G Access, +Stunty, +Right Stuff). Goblins have the same stat line with -1MA for 40k. Skinks have +1MA -Right Stuff for 60k. Saprolings are way overpriced. Right Stuff is absolutely no exchange for a 10k Price raise and reduction from MA 8 to 7.

Dendroid Warriors are the current "stars" of the team with +thick skull +stand firm +throw team mate but -mighty blow -reg compared with mummies. They're stronger than flesh golems in exchange for slower movement. They come with a nice utility skill: throw team mate, but they will skill slower than mummies at the beginning and also lack the G access of flesh golems. But they are still a good position.

So when I look at the team as a whole:

You have 2 St5 players with no neg-traits which is great. But other then that you don't have much in the strength department: no blitzers (block), no other players with S skill access, no high av apart of dendroids, no A access on sturdy players in combination with G access. This means the team is low on block, guard, mighty blow, blodge and that with just above average in armor rating. They get outbashed by pretty much anything that is just about bashy! Be it undead (cheaper St3 linemen, 2x blitzers, 2x big guys with no neg-traits and comes with MB, Ghouls become soon St3 blodge) or dwarfs (all block, strong av), or orcs (lots of St4, 4x Blitzers, St5) or chaos (at blitzing all positions have st4 or better, 4x St4 players, 1x St5, mutation on normal rolls) or... even humans (4x blitzers with Str Access, 1x Big Guy) and more so dark elves (4x blitzers, 2x witch elves, blodging all over the place, more mobile because of AG4) will give your team a very hard time.

The running game is below mediocre. With linemens at MA 5 and your dendroids at MA3 your ents and sapprolings as possible ball carriers can't use their speed at full advantage (not that they very fast either). The team lacks the punch (the blitzer) to open gaps (sure you can use the dendroids with their MA3 and lack of block - but that's not very effective) and is not mobile enough (AG<4) to avoid the direct confrontation with the other team. So they either have to throw ball carrying sapprolings around or try to bash through. First way is quite risky and the later one a difficult task.

The passing game is average but not solid. Passing with AG3 is quite risky and cries for turnovers beyond short passing range. Sapprolings can become average catchers with diving catch but lack catch. Although reasonably fast they're not really able to outrun most enemies, have St2 and no block. But they make up for it as they dodge well and are hard to pin down as they ignore tackle zones while dodging.

A rather unique strength they have is, that they have the most reliable throw team mate mechanic. Their TTM guy has no neg traits, can get strong arm, the saprolings have MA7 (faster than goblins) and the team has also a capable thrower to get the ball from the backyard towards the frontline (MV6, AG3, can get Accurate and Kick-Off-Return). Although on the field they are not that great, as One-Turn-TD device they are dangerous and I think one turn td capabilities should be monitored VERY closely as they are possible game breaking.

[As a loooong side note: I think it was very questionable that BBRC allowed Chaos Pact an Ogre and a Goblin as well! AG2 TTM guy, with just Bonehead as neg trait (no always hungry) and access to Strong Arm in combination with the MA6 Goblin (with access to two head) is relative potent. Overall chaos pact is quite strong if managed right, pehaps too strong as original intended. Over time they develop a better passing game than humans (Marauders have access to accurate and strong arm on normal rolls), have very flexible linemens (access to 4 categories on normal rolls!), have almost on any position strength access, have a AG4 player, up to 3 BG with ST5, mutations (both normal or double rolls), pehaps the best TTM-one turn-TD mechanic. The only real downside is the lack of starting skills at the beginning. But at TV1750+ they will have pretty much picked up the essential stuff (Block, a Thrower, some guard, excellent blodging catcher) and become quite a threat. If you use the BGs passively their unreliability is not that much of an issue, because they are first and far most heavy road blocks and that's how you should use them. At the TV2000+ region things start to get really nasty. Some players with MB+Claw combo, AV8 Blodging foul appearance catcher, goblins with two heads, sprint and sure feat. Possible some BG with block, tentacle and/or Guard.... They're definitely stronger then your treeman, frankly speaking.]

So the tree men will rely a lot on that desperate one-turn-td to even the score or will try to make a small push and lob the ball carrying sappos over the defense line in hope they land near enough the TD zone without being knocked over. Otherwise they don't have much to offer.

If you don't mind, I could post how I imagine a tree kin Cockerel, though it would be quite different then yours.

[skinlee78]

Hi skinlee78,

<story>

If you don't mind, I could post how I imagine a tree kin Cockerel, though it would be quite different then yours.

Of course, be my guest to propose your point of view.
Just as i said before, i would love this team just based on the idea my friend had. I don't have the illusion it is a playable team as it was proposed original.

Well i'm curious about your proposal
I sure will think about your tips and trics.

[Xadie]

My roosters idea is most likely not perfect but I think it follows an interesting game plan and is highly inspired by the magical forest dwellers described in the WHF:Wood Elves Codex.

So here we go:

0-16 Spites 40,000 5 2 3 7 G Thick Skull, Right Stuff, Dauntless
0-4 Dryads 80,000 7 3 3 8 GA Thick Skull, Wrestle
0-2 Treekin 100,000 4 4 2 9 GS Thick Skull, Tackle
0-1 Treemen 120,000 2 6 1 10 S Mighty Blow, Take Root, Stand Firm, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate

50K Apo (Tree Surgeon)
50K Rerolls

Idea behind it: a running team that can take some abuse without necessary dishing it out. Relying on the combination of their throw team mate abilities, slow but strong players and help of quick blitzers with westle they are more of a position oriented team.

On offense they employ a slow running play in the first turns using Treemen and Treekin as running screen and cover. In the following rounds the coach can throw spites into TD range so they could be possible targets for a handover. (Their cheap price and relative resilience with no stunty, thick skull and AV7 helps them a lot to survive the landing.) Or they push forward with their Dryads which represent the blitzer in this team. Reasonably fast, armored and possible wrodging they withstand a lot attention by the opposition.
On defense they have some excellent road blocks. Those Spites help to provide assists and can be used as living bombs to crack the enemy formation. Dryads with their good armor, access to blodge and sidestep can stretch the opposition apart and therefor creating possible blitzing lanes leading to the ball carrier.

Thoughts on every position (with little fluff):

Spites:
[Some fluff explanation: spites are lesser forest spirits that use more fragile plants (such as shrubs) as hosts rather then trees. When inside a shrub they assume control over it and are able to move it at will. As bush branches are more flexible then that of a tree they are faster but being relative weak forest spirits they can't employ much force but they feel no pain nor do they have any fear because destruction of the host won't automatically cause death of the spite. They just have to look for a new host.]

Spites are a very unique right stuff creatures as they lack dodge, stunty and agility access but having thick skull and general skill access. The main reason behind it is to be sure that they are absolutely not suited for one-turn-td and not particular mobile. But the coach should be encouraged to thrown them around at will to lay tackle zones on opponents, positioning them as targets for handovers and/or passes and therefore stretching the defense of the opposition. Later with block they can aggressively mark players and their low cost combined with dirty player suits them as dedicated foulers. Never the less they have just ST2, no defense starting skills, AV7 and no simple access to Blodge limits their playing time on the pitch a lot. Their life spans are severely limited as contrary to lizards they don't have such a superior strength base on other pieces to protect them from harm, nor can the spites dodge as well as skinks. On their own they can't hope to hold back any serious effort and function mainly as support and block assists.

Dryads:
The fastest player on the Cockerel, well armored and have wrestle. They represent the blitzer among the tree folks with GA they have all the tools they need for it. Their skill set opens several development routes for them. JumpUp enjoys good synergy with westle and with full defensive skill set [Wrestle, Dodge, Fend, Sidestep] they can be very annoying. Also the combination of Wrestle and Strip ball let them become excellent ball carrier blitzers. One of their strengths is also their drawback: wrestle. Wrestle doesn't create injuries on the opposition and is less than optimal for a possible ball carrier. On top of it dryads have only AG3. Though it is not so bad they still can't dodge well enough to fully embrace the mobile play of elves and the like.

Treekin:
The blocker type player on the Cockerel. Having only two won't win you any blocking wars on their own but they’re strong and well armored enough to slow down cages. If they can lay a tackle zone on the ball carrier they are very annoying... But as they are very slow and only two of them are on the pitch you have to position them very well.

Treeman:
The treeman is the primary roadblock of the team. They are strong, with high armor but very immobile. In many games they have problems to be there where the action is but they are well suited denying the opponent access to whole areas of the pitch. They also represent the launch base for the spites lobing them over the opponents defense line, into cages or just somewhere where an extra wooden branch can be of help. *g*

Disadvantages of the Cockerel:
- any MNGs on the positionals hurt a lot as jouneyman all have st2
- overall a slow Cockerel
- no passing game to speak off (except of throwing around shrubs of course *g*)
- no AG4
- no position starts with block
- a lot of ST2 players
- relative slow with the exception of dryads
- only 3 players have access to mighty blow/guard or start with it
- overall not heavily armored, some players have just AV7

Advantages of the Cockerel:
- cheap RR
- relative reliable throw team mate mechanic
- some well armored pieces
- good combination of Agility skill sets and strength skill sets
- quite affordable prices on the positions
- excellent blitzers
- Access to Wrodge and Guard a like
- cheap "linemen" make a deep bench easy, good fouling possibilities

[Kort]

Great design.

The only problem is that the Dryads and the Treeman are undercosted. Right now it is possible to start a team with the 7 positionals (640k), 4 Sprites (160k), 3 rerolls (150k), and the Apothecary (50k), which seems a bit too good to be fair.

A Dryad is basically a Goul with +AV that gets Wrestle and Thick Skull but loses Dodge. In my opinion, that would warrant a price of 90k (The theoretical cost should be 100k, but that would be too much compared to similar positions). Since the team can have up to 4, 80k is a significant discount.

The Treeman is exactly the one that Halflings get, since he does not come with Loner. In turn, this makes Take Root much less a drawback since the 2+ can be rerolled when it fails. It is hard to justify that this team should have such a good deal, which was granted to Halflings in the latest iteration of the rules to make them suck a bit less. I understand the rational behind the absence of Loner, but this kind of Big Guy is way too good in a normal team that has access to Right Stuff players. I would say a 20k price hike would not be unfair.

The other option you can play on is the cost of the rerolls. Making them 60k would be a start, if you do not want to change the cost of the Dryads.

[Xadie]

Kort, I see your point and will adjust the Cockerel more carefully on the next team iteration.

I'm still thinking about the basic composition of the Team. I'm still bit worried that on the long run the team suffers too much from MNGs.
[Perhaps I should split Dryads into 2 forms (something of 0-16 Linedryad and 0-2 Branchwraith as Blitzers) to take some pressure away and move spites back as a 0-4 positional... *thinking* But I also would like to see that coaches use their spites and that they happily field 3-4 of them all time. On the current Cockerel they are kind of forced though *g* But how should they look like when they are a positional? More AV and JumpUp to make them even more suited to be thrown? Pehaps MA? But I wouldn't like AG access too much.]

Any thoughts about my concern?


Any further Ideas on team?