Piling On equalizer

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:35 pm

Bloodbasher Masher wrote:
sean newboy wrote:Dont forget that Norse blitzers love Pile on, after all they already have Jump up and dont need doubles.
Norse Blitzers and Witch Elves are an exception. The Jump Up trait makes Pile On even that much more tasty.

giving a witch elf piling on is a great way to ensure she lives a very short life. it's also a waste of a doubles roll...i'd much rather give her mighty blow, it can be used on arm OR inj and you don't have to give your opponent a free foul attempt on your most expensive, lowest av player.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:36 pm

Bloodbasher Masher wrote:Sorry, but even if it was ruled "declare before rolling AV", it would not change anything.

It would. Those mummies would be going down for no reason half the time (either because they didn't pass armour or they would have passed it without piling on). With MA3 mummies, that's one less player you need to be concerned about next turn.

Nightbird · Post by **Nightbird** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:29 am

I agree that, in the LEAST, PO needs to be declared before the dice roll! This would greatly affect people using it so freely with no worry of actually , shall I say , wasting the skill that turn if they missed the AV check.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:30 am

Crossposting from other thread:

Either declare the action before the diceroll, or keep it after the dice roll and allow a reroll of armour if you pile on. Get rid of the ST bonus and make it a flat +1 or +2

Fits fluff, you see them go down, start to get up and give them the elbow drop; it keeps the "after the diceroll" paradigm; it maintains the risk as you're no longer certain to break armour if you use the skill, and it takes the skill away from ST5 Mighty Blow players and gives it back to everyone.

Nightbird · Post by **Nightbird** » Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:10 pm

I like your suggestions on getting rid of the ST bonus, but letting the choice to PO remain after the dice roll AND getting a RR on AV? Then every AV roll would have a reason to get a RR. Declaring it before the dice roll will end up putting the PO player prone some times after failing the AV check and balance the skill a BIT.

I just don't see how a player that has PO could actually know if he'll hurt another player while using the skill and thus get to choose to use it or not.

I also think instead of the straight ST bonus there could be bonuses applied to size or strength maybe. Such as a +2 for bigguys and a +1 for normal sized or a +3 for St 5 , +2 St 4, +1 St 3. Just thoughts.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:14 am

Nightbird wrote:I just don't see how a player that has PO could actually know if he'll hurt another player while using the skill and thus get to choose to use it or not.

Bingo!

Nightbird wrote:I also think instead of the straight ST bonus there could be bonuses applied to size or strength maybe. Such as a +2 for bigguys and a +1 for normal sized or a +3 for St 5 , +2 St 4, +1 St 3. Just thoughts.

Take it from people who've played with the "declare before" version for years and tried real hard to abuse it. It's not broken at all that way. If anything, mighty blow is better than piling on in that ruleset.

zeroalpha · Post by **zeroalpha** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:27 am

i wouldn't consider piling on worse than mighty blow, its definately better than fouling in most instances, as the players with access to the skill usually have higher ST values. I think making it a trait and declared before the dice roll is what needs to happen.

Sushé Wakka · Post by **Sushé Wakka** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:04 am

AAaaargh! Why do you all hate so much my poor Norse Blitzers? Piling on is about the only skill that can help them to equalize against other teams (Specially against high AV teams). Why do you want to turn them into useless chaps?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:11 am

Sushé Wakka wrote:AAaaargh! Why do you all hate so much my poor Norse Blitzers? Piling on is about the only skill that can help them to equalize against other teams (Specially against high AV teams). Why do you want to turn them into useless chaps?

Nothing personal - just give them all Mighty Blow instead.

Sushé Wakka · Post by **Sushé Wakka** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 12:39 pm

ianwilliams wrote:Nothing personal - just give them all Mighty Blow instead.

I don't want them to rack casualties. I want them to keep people stunned an so give me "free turns" to move without tacklezones pestering me. That's why I need them to tear through armour. However, this thread is not for discussing tactics but to fix the supposed problem that Piling On is (we haven't had that problem with Undead mummies, they were occupied picking up Block and Guard, but since so many people complain, there may be a real problem after all... We simply didn't suffer it: I was the only coach who gave Piling on to his players, who happen to were Norse Blitzers).

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 1:25 pm

I don't think anyone thinks Piling On is a problem on S3 players.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Wed Mar 12, 2003 11:43 pm

ianwilliams wrote:I don't think anyone thinks Piling On is a problem on S3 players.

Aha! The solution then. Limit the mod to a max of +3.

Balrog · Post by **Balrog** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 8:18 am

Darkson wrote:Aha! The solution then. Limit the mod to a max of +3.

No no no!!! The skill was fine before it was changed! Just change it back, argh!!

-Balrog

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:53 am

Nightbird wrote: I just don't see how a player that has PO could actually know if he'll hurt another player while using the skill and thus get to choose to use it or not.

Well, the idea was mooted as an alternative if the BBRC were dead keen on maintaining the "after the diceroll" paradigm, which Piling On is incompatible with.

The idea is you knock him down, see him fall safely, then do the big elbow drop. Keeps the skill useful, keeps it after the diceroll, but still never guarantees an injury roll if you go down, unlike the current incarnation.

It also takes the skill away from ST5/MB players and gives it back to everyone.

Personally, I prefer the old version (we've houseruled "before the roll" in the ECBBL). I think this would work well if you removed the ST aspect through, kills two birds with one stone while still keeping the same skill paradigm.

Remember - just saying "how would the player know" isn't really an argument; rules balance first, fluff second. We already have an established game mechanic which states the player always knows. Zombie, you used a similar example while defending OSPA.

Zombie · Post by **Zombie** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:04 pm

Marcus wrote:Well, the idea was mooted as an alternative if the BBRC were dead keen on maintaining the "after the diceroll" paradigm, which Piling On is incompatible with.

That "paradigm" is already broken by a couple other skills, so it's not a good excuse at all.