Separate Chaos Teams

[plasmoid]

I agree with sixpack.
As a starting point I'd prefer ST skills on the marauder linemen too.
My thinking is this:
If skill access stays the same (i.e. G, ST, PH) on the linemen, the only difference between beastmen and marauders is that beastmen "get" AV+1 and horns where marauders get block.
A fair trade IMO. Removing the ST skill would make it a bad trade.

Also, chaos is bashy - and one of it's few advantages is ST skills on everyone.
Take that away, and you've got 4 good black orcs and a whole lot of linemen.

Cheers
Martin

[Sixpack595]

Also, chaos is bashy - and one of it's few advantages is ST skills on everyone.
Take that away, and you've got 4 good black orcs and a whole lot of linemen.

Cheers
Martin

Keep in mind that no one on that team can take Agility or Passing skills. Chaos is supposed to be about the bashiest around. Without Str skills they will fall behind IMHO. Since this will be experimental (I hope! ) before being official I'm sure it will be playtested both ways.

[Joemanji]

I agree with sixpack.
As a starting point I'd prefer ST skills on the marauder linemen too.
My thinking is this:
If skill access stays the same (i.e. G, ST, PH) on the linemen, the only difference between beastmen and marauders is that beastmen "get" AV+1 and horns where marauders get block.
A fair trade IMO. Removing the ST skill would make it a bad trade.

Did you forget that marauders are 10k cheaper? That is a HUGE difference. Compare these two starting teams:

1 Chaos Warrior
10 Beastmen
3 rerolls
FF 9

3 Chaos Warriors
8 Linemen (or marauders if you like)
3 rerolls
FF 9

The difference is an extra two ST 4 and AV 9 players in your starting lineup.

Marauders are Norse Linemen. They don't get ST access. The physical access is only 'cos they are on the "Chaos" team, but should make enough difference in skill selection and usefulness in the long run.

Are you seriously saying you haven't realised that every beardy coach will take an all Mighty Blow marauder team. 6 SPP gets you that skill for a player who starts with block and whey-heh! Instant cream cheese! This isn't so much of a problem with Beastmen, because they need skills like Block, Sure Hands and Guard, so MB abuse isn't as likely or useful. C'mon guys - you should see the problem there without me having to spell it out.

[Sixpack595]

This isn't so much of a problem with Beastmen, because they need skills like Block, Sure Hands and Guard, so MB abuse isn't as likely or useful. C'mon guys - you should see the problem there without me having to spell it out.

So if you have block you no longer need Sure Hands or Guard? On the other hand a av 7 player needs skills like Guard even more since falling down is alot more damaging to them. All mighty blow is going to win you a bunch of games. Those AV 7 guys take a beating, after a few games they need all the help they can get.

Are you so against playtesting it both ways for any particular reason?

[plasmoid]

Again, I agree with sixpack, and would like to add:
The cost difference will affect the team on the short term. Making it easier to start up. It will have little impact long term.
And it is long term that the ST-accss will have an impact - not short term.

BTW, a dwarf team can take mighty blow on everyone at 6spp. and they've got block and AV9.

If these marauders try to bash it with ST-access on just 4 players, I believe they will be caught with their pants down.
Martin

[Joemanji]

Are you so against playtesting it both ways for any particular reason?

No. Playtest by all means. I won't say I told you so. It is just pretty obvious what will happen if you allow ST access across the board.

Let's talk realistically. A coach can feasibly take MB on his first 4 marauders. This will make the team a lot more competitive than any other team of similar TR. He can afford to do this, because Block all-over means his dedicated hurting game is better at these low TR levels. Have you played the current Chaos team? Beastmen need Block - they burn sooooooo many rerolls on "both downs".

Then we get the situation where coach rolls up a double for his first skill. No brainer - Claw or RSF, take MB on the next advance. They already have Block. It is not the possibility of getting this that is the problem. It is the certainty. 12 marauders on a full rosters, 1 in 6 chance of rolling a double.

The point is, Beastmen have ST access, but they have a range of skills to choose from. They can try taking all Block, Guard or MB. But in the end, it is never as effective as taking a range of skills.

[gken1]

Yes norse lineman need st access to be effective long term, but unless you increase the cost then they should remain without st access. Nazgit's point is they are 50k...meaning relatively cheap to replace.

if you increase cost to 60k it would be ok, but i agree with Nazgit...they are Norse lineman.

[plasmoid]

I see beastmen as having the exact same choices as the "marauders".
And I don't think that AV7 and block is better than AV8 and horns.
I still think that a bashy team with ST-access on just 4 players will be dead in the water, and I further think that AV7 on most of your players in a bashy team is no laughing matter.
Martin

[Joemanji]

I see beastmen as having the exact same choices as the "marauders".

I'm sorry, but this just is not the case. They can't have the "exact" same choices unless they are the exact same player.

I will try to make my point again. Block + MB is a more effective combination than any single skill that a beastman can take. It is certainly more effective than either Block or MB on their own. Giving all your beastmen MB is not nearly as effective as giving all your marauders MB. This is a difference, and means that marauders and beastmen are not the same.

And I don't think that AV7 and block is better than AV8 and horns.

It isn't better, just different. And so requires different conisderations.

[plasmoid]

Hi Nazgit,
>It isn't better, just different. And so requires different conisderations.

But if it isn't better then I don't see the balance problem.
Once again we just see things differently.
I wouldn't want to play a no-passing skill, no-catching skill, kind of slow bashy team with ST access on just 4 players. And as stated, AV7 on a bashy team is no picnic. Block or no block.
Martin

[plasmoid]

And what I meant by the same choices as beastmen is, that if they use the "broken" option of mighty blow on everyone, then they'll be missing skills like guard, tackle and sure hands just as much as the beastmen would.
Which, IMO, means that it isn't broken at all.

Martin

[David Bergkvist]

>It isn't better, just different. And so requires different conisderations.

But if it isn't better then I don't see the balance problem.

The balance problem would be that they'd get something that is about as good, for 10k less. If you were arguing that the marauder should cost 60k and have access to strength skills, you'd have a point.

[IronAge_Man]

I see beastmen as having the exact same choices as the "marauders".
And I don't think that AV7 and block is better than AV8 and horns.
I still think that a bashy team with ST-access on just 4 players will be dead in the water, and I further think that AV7 on most of your players in a bashy team is no laughing matter.
Martin

That sounds like the current Norse team to me (yes, I know they can pass, but they aren't that great at it).

Edit: I think no Str access on the marauders, 4 CWs and everyone having access to mutations sounds nice to me - definately not underpowered. it might suffer from the same thing the Chaos Pact team did - it's dull to play with.

[gken1]

yeah if they cost the same then av7 + block doesn't equal av8 horns and st access

but marauders are 10k cheaper.

[IronAge_Man]

To get back OT, what I would like to see is a Chaos team with a passing game, to make use of some of the under-used passing-orientated mutations like Extra Arms and Two Heads. Something not too far from Humans with physical access would be nice.