Talk Fantasy Football

I posted this originally in response to someone elses alternative, but I felt that it should be debated in it's own thread. Plus, I like starting new threads.

Why not try going back to the old OFAB rules from the compendiums, but modified slightly.

OFF FOR A BITE
At the start of every drive [Edid: Except the first drive of the game] roll a d6 for each vampire on your team with the OFAB trait. On a 4+ they can take to the pitch as normal, but on a 1-3 they decide to roam the crowd for food and miss the current drive. If one of your Vampires does fail the roll, you may instead place one of your thralls into the dead and injured box with a Bad Injury and allow the vampire to play as normal. The thrall has willingly given of himself to the vampire in order for the vampire to continue to play for that drive. No one would get spps for the casualties as they were self-inflicted.

The old rule was that the vampires would fail to show up for the start of each drive on a 1-3 and be able to play on a 4-6. This was detrimental to the team as the vampires ended up missing most of the game and you ended up playing with a thrall heavy team. In that case you may as well have played with Norse or Amazons. At least their players start with skills.

I would like to try something like this to take away the chance for vampires to injure their thralls permanently while still penalizing the team and making it less effective.

It would require a lot of judgement by the coach of the team as he would have to weigh whether or not to take a player permanently off the pitch for the game in order to allow a vampire to play for the current drive. You could run out of thralls quickly if you don't manage your team well and fail a lot of OFAB rolls, or you could be extremely lucky and never have to worry about it if your vampires make their rolls.

What do you think?

P.S. - I'm also not adverse to making the roll a 3+ to stay on the field and a 1-2 to fail the roll. I don't know if this would be enough of a detriment for OFAB.

IMO ST4 & AG4 are too good to have no on pitch penalty.

That's why I don't like it.

Quick version of my problem:

It rewards buying more and more Vampires.

A good rule (like the current experimental one) punishes a team more with the more Vampires it has.

Galak

Actually, the vampires on your team are not punished as much as the thralls are though.

This rule punishes the vampire team more than you think Galak. Let me show you what I mean. It actually encourages purchase of both vampires and thralls. You need a good supply of thralls to keep this team going.

At most, you are still going to have 6 vampires on the team. With a 4+ to show up on the field you will lose 3 vampires on average. If you place three thralls in the dead and injured box to keep all three vampires on the pitch you are down to 8 players. On the next drive you roll again. 3 more vampires on average fail off for a bite. Now you only have 2 thralls to put in the box to keep your vampires on the pitch. 1 vampire remains in the reserves box while the other two return to the field. You are now playing with 5 vampires and no thralls for the rest of the match. At every new drive you roll again. Now you have on average 3 vampires and no thralls on the pitch to try and win the rest of the game with.

If you miss-manage this version of OFAB you could be hurting in the 2nd half of the game. It is more of a penalty than you think it is.

It actually encourages you to purchase more thralls than vampires so that you have enough thralls to keep your vampires on the pitch as much as possible. Your depleted bench will hurt you badly if you dip into the thrall supplies too much. 3-6 vampires are still going to get cremed by a team that outnumbers them 2-1.

Wrong ... I played Vampires under 3rd edition with this version of OFAB without the Bite the Thrall option that you added.

I WON my leagues regular season (26 team league). How did I do that ... I bought as many Vampires as possible as soon as possible. Because the more Vampires you have the more you'll have on the pitch with no Negatives.

See you are assuming that a good Vampire coach would actually BH a Thrall to field a Vampire ... he won't ... not at all ... not until the last drive of the game or maybe the start of the 2nd Half.

Look at it this way ... your rule takes the 3rd edition rules and made the team EVEN BETTER. Because now when I roll a 1-3, I have an option to still field the Vampire where in 3rd I did not.

Sorry leblanc13 ... your intentions are honorable ... but an off-pitch roll can never balance the Vampire team since 3 Vampires without onpitch negatives are enough to dominate a game.

Galak

Hi all,
Galak said:
>but an off-pitch roll can never balance the Vampire team since 3
>Vampires without onpitch negatives are enough to dominate a game.

Not are. Were.
In my experience, what made the vampires so ridiculously efficient on the pitch was the way that their gaze potentially could take them "anywhere", through "any" defensive line and either score or knock over the opposing ball carrier.
With the new gaze it is a very very different team. The gaze went from an über skill to a marginal skill.

I honestly think that the vampire team could be balanced with the new gaze and no OFAB. You could knock the thralls down to AV6 just to be on the safe side.
I guess you won't agree.
But I think that playtest might support my claim.

Still, AFAIK, BBRC considers a bite rule an integral part of vampires. In that case, I just think that the new gaze means that the bite rule should be taken down a (big) notch.

Cheers
Martin

My problem is Martin ... that HGaze is worthless now IMO.

MBBL2 has MANY Vampire teams (7 different ones in fact) and several other teams with Hypnotic Gaze on players.

In almost 100 matches with HGaze players ... I've seen it used twice on review of the logs.

Its been reduced to a nothing skill ... you might as well remove it from the players.

I'd much rather FIX having Pro as a General skill and HGaze be a working fix (I have one I plan on having the MBBL test) ... and leave OFAB alone.

Galak

Hi Galak,
totally valid way to work the problem.

My hope then is that instead of a super-powerful gaze and super-negative OFAB, both elements could be made less "super".

I've also been thinking about a gaze which is weaker than the old one, but better than the new one: A vampire may use his gaze on any action that allows it to move (i.e. not a block action). The gaze requires a roll over opponents AG. The important bit is that using the gaze ends the action immediately.

So, vampires will have to work in teams to get good use of their gaze. A single vamp can use it's gaze to reach an opposing ball handler or to score. Also, every time that a vampire uses it's gaze, it is setting itself up for a block.

Besides, it appeals to me that the gazing "takes time", instead of being something that a vampire can do while running full tilt down the pitch.

Cheers
Martin

Well, its been the better part of a half year and I swear I saw that horse twitching so, this happy little guy is a step in the right diretion:



Instead of 0-6 uberplayers that have to be utterly broken in a negative trait, make 0-2 Vampire and 0-4 Nosferatu who can be slower and AG2. The Thralls can just be human lineman (possibly with AV7 due to bloodloss).

Giving the Nosteratu a Frenzy-like negative trait might be interesting as well (Must follow, must foul?)

MBBL which I plan on working over the next 2 weeks to get restarted now that the Vault is very close to opening.

Here is the Vampire team we are looking at testing:

0-6 Vampires
0-12 Thralls
70 rerolls
Apothecary only for Thralls

OFAB left in its current form.
Pro returned to a General Skill

HGaze changed to: HGaze can only be used in conjuction with a move action. You may only use HGaze on an adjacent opponent. Roll an unmodified Agility roll for the HGaze player. A successful roll removes the opponent's tackle zone until the end of the turn. A failed roll has no effect. Use of HGaze ends the HGaze player's action even if he had MA left.

I personally think this team will be just fine. Challenging ... but fun ... and definitely still possible to win a championship in a league.

Galak

Hi Galak,
woohoo - that looks a lot like the gaze I've been talking about.
Except that the AG check is now based on the gazer rather than the gazee(?).
Fair enough.
The rule's a good 'un

If this becomes official it will cause some problems for our homemade daemon team, which has gaze on AG2 players - but we'll deal with that in due time.
Cheers
Martin

Think this is overpowered? Definitely simple:
With the HGaze rules mentioned above.

just out of curiosity, the changes to pro etc are part of a package with the Strength-access only big guys?
An integrated fix to big guys and two experimental teams. Very elegant.

The Florist wrote:just out of curiosity, the changes to pro etc are part of a package with the Strength-access only big guys?
An integrated fix to big guys and two experimental teams. Very elegant.

I "think" this is the plan ... remember ... I'm one voice of 7 ... and I could end up being just 1 voice at the end of the day.

Galak

Doesn't your new rule make hypnotic gaze worse than it is in it's current form?

It now requires an agility roll which for a vampire will succeed on a 1- 4 and fail on a 5-6. Under the current rules it succeeds on a 2+ and can be made in place of a block action. This allows it to be used on a block or on a blitz.

I agree that using it on a move action would be better, but you are reducing it's chances of working from 83% to 67%. Couldn't we keep it at a 2+ and still allow it on a move action?

Also, I see your point about my version of OFAB, but I still think that the current rules cause too many casualties on your own players when the inevitable failures come up.

So, pro is really being considered to be moved back to a skill instead of a trait? That could help a little with the vamps.