Moaning about the Amazon Roster

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Fri May 14, 2004 10:30 am

Id quite like to see changes made to the amazon roster.

As this page shows Amazons are the most over powered team by far.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats ... ts&tr100=1

They also have in my opionion the least imaginative 'quick lets stick the same skill on everyone' boring formula in the whole game.

The fact that amazon and norse both came out at the same time as well and are both the same dull formula confounds the lack of effort put into creating this team IMO.

I would like to see the amazon roster based more closely on the human roster but increased access to agility skills for some and decreased AV. IMO they should be a little faster to compensate for losing dodge alround.

Something Like this.

Linewoman 6337 (Gen,AG)
Thrower 6337 Surehands, Pass (Gen, AG, Passing)
Catcher 8237 Catch, Dodge (Gen, AG)
Blitzer 7337 Block, Dodge (Gen, AG)

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:21 pm

I'm not sure what I would do with them but I do dislike both of these rosters as bland and flavourless.

I think we're probably stuck with them now though. Lot's of coaches do like and play them and they would object to the rosters being changes. At the end of the day I don't have to play as them if I don't like them.

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:39 pm

If it wasnt for the fact that Amazons were so successful I would probably just ignor them and never use them but as it is i think it requires a change (of some sort).

In short borring and unimaginative roster I can live with but one that is unbalanced AS WELL seems to be begging for a change of some sort.

It is my personal view that teams like Amazons and Norse should not be *quite* as good as standard Humans but should be flavoursome alternatives.

I do agree though that it is probably far too well established now to ever be changed.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri May 14, 2004 12:52 pm

Let me think. What % of TR100 games are between Amazons and Dwarves, Chaos Dwarves and Norse? Probably a bit low.

FUMBBL is not necessarily indicative because its open. IIRC zons don't do so well over all range bands anyway - and are pretty rubbish at TR250.

m0nty_au · Post by **m0nty_au** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:00 pm

Those results are only for TR100 vs TR100 games, so of course Amazons do well, since only dwarfs have tackle out of the box and you wouldn't find many coaches in an open environment choosing to play dorfs with their zons at any TR. Zons can also afford lots of rerolls, plus lots of skills which give free rerolls, at TR100 so that's why they are so strong to start with.

You will notice how Chaos and the elf varieties are way down the bottom of that graph. Chaos have no skills at TR100 and so suffer in ball skills. I'm not sure why the elves don't do better - kind of a weird one, actually.

However, zons' performance across all types of TR difference is average, as you can see by the race-by-race ladder. They seem to be very balanced overall, judging by the mid-ranking position they have in that list.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:14 pm

Was going to post the same as ian re: open leagues and TR100v TR100 and avoiding Dwarves/CD.

Check out viewtopic.php?t=11772

Those stats say zons are indeed pretty balanced, and without wanting to offend anybody, I'd trust stats from face to face tourney play (with no choice of opponent) above open online leagues of any description, even if the sample size is smaller.

(TR 100-no stars:
8th Amazons P105 W0.39 T0.22 L0.39 F1.36 A1.43 Net-0.07 %50.00

Doesn't look anything like 'the most overpowered team by far' to me!)

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Fri May 14, 2004 1:38 pm

I guess that if you want to balance Amazons, it is quite simple:
(i) ensure there are Dwarves or Chaos Dwarves in your league.
or
(ii) take Tackle.

Martyn

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Fri May 14, 2004 3:04 pm

Maybe showing a TR100 page was a bad example but this page shows overall performances across TR and shows that when TR's are balanced Amazons win 55% of games and lose only 29%.

http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=stats ... lts&race=1

Ok, I note your concerns about FUMBBL stats not being wholely representetive but they are the only stats I have. Similarly the stats deathwing point to are tournament generated rather than typical league play.

The biggest reason I dont like amazons is the 'flatness' of the roster (if you understand what I mean), seems like a rushed job to get a roster out ASAP. I just find it an Ugly and dull way to make a new team (very subjective).

Hmm.. what skill shall I choose... um... Block! Yay another MA6 ST3 AG3 AV7 Blodger! I perfur more individual possition types I guess.

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Fri May 14, 2004 3:16 pm

Repeat post.

By the way Monty_au I folloed your link and just for curiosily clicked rank by TD +/- and Zon's came out top of the official teams...

Munkey · Post by **Munkey** » Fri May 14, 2004 3:32 pm

I personally don't like the Amazons because they are dull but then that's just personal choice.

I don't think they are broken at all, although I hear a lot of comments that they are.

I think the main reason for this is that because of easy Blodge access they can play very well as a bashy team not because of strength or power but because they are so hard to knock over. This can become frustrating to opponents and leads to the overpowered accusation.

Actually with a bit of tackle applied the team can be made to crumble and like all AV7 teams can prove to be fragile if unlucky on the armour rolls.

Mirascael · Post by **Mirascael** » Fri May 14, 2004 3:52 pm

m0nty_au wrote:You will notice how Chaos and the elf varieties are way down the bottom of that graph. Chaos have no skills at TR100 and so suffer in ball skills. I'm not sure why the elves don't do better - kind of a weird one, actually.

Easily explained:
Contrary to popular belief, elves start as one of the worst ball-handling races. Since their starting roster will contain one blocker at most and have almost no ball-handling skills to begin with, they run out of RRs pretty fast. And there's the explanation: Without a RR AG 4 is far worse than AG 3 with Sure Hands or Catch (it's actually almost as bad as an AG 2 Throw-Ra with regard to pick ups). Failing that 1 SPP-Pass so many coaches talk about has a 50% probability. Nevertheless, many coaches seem to think that AG 4 is better than it seems and play accordingly risky. Even though AG 4 can pull it off sometimes, it will fail you far more often than you might think, especially without RRs and RR-related skills.

Xzar · Post by **Xzar** » Fri May 14, 2004 4:00 pm

It is my personal view that teams like Amazons and Norse should not be *quite* as good as standard Humans but should be flavoursome alternatives.

I fully agree with this; as it should be for most new teams. When introducing a new team, always better to err on the side of caution. Too weak is always better than too strong.

Almost everyone takes block anyway, Amazons are not really exceptional in that case, but I agree the team structure is bland.

I don't quite understand why Amazons get such cheap re-rolls though, they aren't as professional as normal humans and would lack alot of the resources.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri May 14, 2004 6:27 pm

Underdog wrote:Ok, I note your concerns about FUMBBL stats not being wholely representetive but they are the only stats I have. Similarly the stats deathwing point to are tournament generated rather than typical league play.

Tourney stats are probably actually a better indicator IMO. (In that the spread of teams they played against are probably more balanced and that the teams are almost always exactly level in terms of TR/skills gained etc.)

Just looked at those stats, and (unless I'm reading them wrong) I make that something like 131 games against CD and 111 against Dwarf of a total of 3,874.
If the premise is that Zons are overpowered in an open league where they can avoid teams or races that counter their basic gimmick, then maybe I can see that. There's nothing inherently wrong with the roster in terms of power though, although maybe the rerolls could go to 50K...I could live with that.

Having played zons in 5 tournies now, personally I don't see them as boring either...you can play them dodgy or you can play them hitty, there's plenty of versatility there...(in stark contrast to Dwarves for example!). Might look boring and one-dimensional on paper, but they're definately kinda fun to coach. (in stark contrast to Dwa....

).

David Bergkvist · Post by **David Bergkvist** » Fri May 14, 2004 9:45 pm

I'd modify both amazons and norse:

Code: Select all

AMAZONS
0-12  Lineman    60k  6 3 3 7  GA   Dodge
0-2   Catcher    70k  8 2 3 7  GA   Dodge, Catch
0-2   Thrower    70k  6 3 3 7  GAP  Dodge, Pass
0-4   Berserker  80k  7 3 3 7  GA   Dodge, Frenzy

NORSE
0-12  Lineman    60k  6 3 3 7  G    Block
0-2   Catcher    70k  8 3 3 7  GA   Catch
0-2   Thrower    70k  6 3 3 7  GP   Block, Pass
0-4   Berserker  80k  7 3 3 7  GS   Block, Frenzy

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Sat May 15, 2004 2:51 pm

Um... Did you mean for Zons to have a berzerker (not blitzer)?

Also those rosters have just made the Zon's a sh*t load better than Norse. With Dodge on all AND AG access for all. I was suggesting either/or.

Still, I prefure them to the current ones by far. They solve my primary concern of the rosters being 'flat' and are much more flavour full than the current rosters. Plus with faster catchers Norse can make a better 2 turn running team rather than being forced to be a bashing team (who will suffer from atrision(sp?) ).