Replacement idea for Khemri

[mattgslater]

I'll say it straight up: I f***king hate hate HATE the Khemri team as-is (see any of my 10 million or so references to the D&D Barbarian for my general opinion of big-ups/big-downs construction), and I'm not willing to switch to the experimental Khemri, because they violate one of my core BB design principles (if ST5, then MB or Claws). I also think the Thro-Ra and Blitz-Ra concepts are really stupid and need to be reworked.

So, here are my major complaints:

1) "Blitz-Ra" and "Thro-Ra" are terminologically awful and terribly unimaginative conceptually.
2) The Blitz-Ra redefines sucky. I understand why, but it's unsightly.
3) The Thro-Ra plays directly into the Khemri best strategy, as if he were built to fix a hole while gaming around that "universal AG2" bit.
4) Four Big Guys is absurd. No, you can't build in a weakness to counter it (as is being attempted): it has to be an absurd weakness, and in game design two wrongs most emphatically do not make a right.
5) When all said and done, all Big Guys will break AV8 on a roll of 8.

So, here's my fix. Keep in mind that I'm not restricted by the "no three of anything" rule, though I'd like to keep it in principle if not practice. I have an "options" rule that allows teams to trade out their BG or a specific couple of positionals for something else appropriate like an on-roster star player or secret weapon, or a different positional or big guy selection. For example, Amazons have only 0-2 Blitzers, but can take 2 more with their option, or instead, they could opt for an Ogress (and thus only 0-2 Blitzers).

0-16 Skels @ 40k
0-2 Mummies
0-2 Tomb Guardians: 5/3/2/8 Block, Break Tackle, Jump Up, Regen, GS, 90k
0-2 Tomb Priests: 6/3/3/7 Hypnotic Gaze, Nerves of Steel, GP, 70k
RR: 70k.
Apo: No (Necromancer)

Options:
* 1 Mummy
* 1 Star Player
* 1 Skel Assassin (Skel w/Stab, AG3, A access for 70k)
* 1-2 Tomb Guardians
* 1-2 Tomb Priests

This way, they keep the same weakness as UD/Necro: they rely on non-Regenerators. Only, they get 3 Big Guys and rely on really sucky and vulnerable non-Regenerators.

Maybe the Tomb Priest needs to be beefier. MA7 isn't appropriate, but AV8 @ 80k would be fun. Disturbing Presence?

WDYT?

[tenwit]

One vote against. Against the suggestions and even against the opinions.

Sorry

[DoubleSkulls]

You are preaching to the converted here about Khemri... but I think the fundmantal problem is achieving any consenus about
1) That the existing roster is bad
2) What an alternative is

[PubBowler]

I personally like Khemri being all AG2.

And I don't like Break Tackle starting on ST3 players.

But I think you're very unlikely to get consensus...

[whitetiger]

Khemri do look to be a bit broken. But, I know several guys that just love the team as is. I think the easy fix would be to just cut the mummies back to 2, let them have 4 Blitz-Ras (which is really odd sounding), and give the Thro-Ras (also odd) 3 AG. I wouldn't change anything else. This tweaks the team enough to make them playable, scales back all that power and still keeps the flavor of the thing.

But getting a consensus on this will be tough.

[PubBowler]

Khemri do look to be a bit broken. But, I know several guys that just love the team as is. I think the easy fix would be to just cut the mummies back to 2, let them have 4 Blitz-Ras (which is really odd sounding), and give the Thro-Ras (also odd) 3 AG. I wouldn't change anything else. This tweaks the team enough to make them playable, scales back all that power and still keeps the flavor of the thing.

But getting a consensus on this will be tough.

Although this topic is for house rules only, it's worth remembering that Khemri are overpowered (that's why there's an experimental khemri) and there has to be 4 ST5 mummy type players in the official team (JJ says).

And I've already said I think it should be AG2 max team.

[Pug]

Hmmmm. interesting what other Khemri experienced players say. Just put together a Khemri team for painting. Haven't played them yet. So of interest to me.

[fen]

One vote against. Against the suggestions and even against the opinions.

Make that two, the experimental version is better than this and I'm 100% against any attempt to remove the awesome names "Blitz-Ra" and "Thro-Ra-ra-ra!" from the game.

[whitetiger]

[quote="PubBowler

Although this topic is for house rules only, it's worth remembering that Khemri are overpowered (that's why there's an experimental khemri) and there has to be 4 ST5 mummy type players in the official team (JJ says).

And I've already said I think it should be AG2 max team.[/quote]

Didn't know it was the house rules topic. Thought we were in concepts. But at any rate:

If the team has to keep at least 4 ST 5 mummies, then they shouldn't have much in the way of abilities. That strength will be enough to keep them in games. We have a Khemri team in our league, and they just physically thrash other teams. He's laying 6 and 7 casualties on other teams regularly, and I don't think he's played a game so far, out of 6, where he hasn't put at least 4 on the opposition. They don't need a passing/dodging game, too.

And I still don't like the names of the positionals.

[Darkson]

Another vote against - Khemri should be AG2 max, and HG doesn't match any of the Khemri fluff.

[BloodBowlGuy]

I have not played Khemri myself, but we had a player in my league that did. The team seemed one dimensional, but he played them very well. He won and lost games like most others. He handed out his (un)fair share of casualties, but had trouble scoring. He did not win the trophy, but he sure tried hard. I had 4 players left on the field when the game ended.

Overall I think the team was over bashy and under scoring powered.

[Jural]

OK, so these are definitely house rules, as they use the "Options" mechanism which doesn't exist in standard Blood Bowl. I like that rule, and have been using it in (stole it for) a Blood Bowl variant I've been looking at...

Now that I'm clear where we are, here are my thoughts.

1) Overdescribed Tomb Guardian- Forget about Jump-Up AND Break Tackle. Just give the guy MA 6 and Jump Up. I'd shy away from Break Tackle on a STR 3, AG 2 piece. Minimal effect. The guy is basically a blitzer- just give him the +1MA already!

2) This team feels more like the Undead team than anything else. OK, a third mummy, a mild variation on the wight, and a cool alternative to the ghoul...

3) I'm not sure the 3rd mummy would be broken with this squad. But I don't know what to think about 4 hypno gazers (Ag 3, no negatrait) on the pitch. This would be my biggest caution. I just don't know if they would get stomped (failed gazes) or create ball movement which was almost risk free (3 chances to hypno gaze

For me, I'd be tempted to play the team with the 4 tomb priests and hope for AG upgrades. I'd keep 2 as ball handlers and keep cutting the remaining two until one rolled a +AG in the first 2 SPP rolls. Once you get 2 Hypno gazes a turn, and can protect those gazers with other players, that would be a fun team to play- Just not "Khmeri enough" for me.

I've always liked this roster (I may not have it exactly, but it was proposed during PBBL testing.)

0-1 Mummy 3 5 1 9 Mighty Blow Regenerate 110k
0-4 Tomb guardians 5 4 2 8 Regen Break Tackle GS
0-16 Skeletons
0-2 Run-Ra's 6 3 2 7 Sure Hands GP

Plenty of Strength. Plenty of Skeletons.

[mattgslater]

I could have (maybe should have) put this in house rules.

I like Jural's point about MA6 vs. BT, and I think the comparison of AG vs. Jump Up is a much easier one to make when comparing this player to the Wight. I think, given the ball-control issues this team needs to balance out its bashiness, and given Jump Up's utility as a speed skill (esp. given you need a 3+ to block with it), that AV9 might be better than MA6 flavor-wise. Or just a price cut? Maybe an alternative to Jump Up would be good instead Stand Firm sounds like too much, and not very Skeleton-y. I could see Disturbing Presence being a nice and Tomb-Guardian-y selection, though as a straight-up replacement it seems a little understated.

My reason behind the Tomb Priests is that a) I think the mind-control helmet fluff is kind of silly, b) I like the idea of an Egyptian-themed priest model, like Etar in "Young Sherlock Holmes" on the BB pitch. HypnoGaze seemed a) fun, b) a fair trade for MA7, c) fluffy for the position, and d) a nice compromise for the lost Mummy by adding a bash skill (and HG can certainly be a bash skill) on a fragile piece, forcing awkward decisions but allowing cool plays.

4x Gaze does sound kind of potentially scary, but that player is fragile, not cheap, and a big target, so I doubt that it would see maximum efficiency on most of those teams. I think most folks would go for the third Mummy out of habit, and I certainly can't blame them.

I understand the "no AG3 to balance 4x AG5" mentality. I just think it doesn't work. First, no AG3 is undermined by the presence of an MA6/SH/Pass player; sure, the team has to pick up @ end of turn and gets no bennie from a RR, but those two limitations sort of cancel each other out. Second, you can't balance out an excess with a deficit if the excess is game-breaking. So I'm looking at an established model, in this case Undead, for a fix. If the TG and TP come out just a touch underpowered compared to the Wight and Ghoul, I think I've done it right.

[Joemanji]

IMO 2 mummies and 2 HypnoGaze players is probably worse than the 4 Mummy roster. You just walk up to a cage and try to HG a route in. If it works you blitz with your Mummy, if not you use them to protect the gazers. HG is a very, very powerful skill.

Btw, I have an alternate roster. So as not to thread hijack, I've put it here: viewtopic.php?t=24301

[mattgslater]

Hmmm... If HG is too powerful, assuming I want to keep with a "Tomb Priest" motif, what should I go for? A price bump? A big price bump and a non-compounding skill like Disturbing Presence? An alternate skill?

I want to stay away from the Thrower template (specifically, no SH and no unequivocally passing skills), but still provide a fluffy P-access utility player. HG seemed like a cool idea for a Priest template.

I thought about the possibilities with HG, but I'm not worried. With AG3 it's a real crapshoot to waste your move action on, especially given that your Gazers are your only MA6 ball-handlers (one reason for my hesitation to make the Tomb Guardians MA6). Gaze allows the blitz to open a hole, but these ain't Elves. My guess is that what will happen is one priest will go for the ball (the only not-sucky ball handler on the team), and the other will run up and HG to make part of a hole (hopefully) for the Mummy blitz. But if HG fails, you have to do the Mummy blitz there anyway, because your AV7/no Regen/no Dodge/no Apo ball-carrier is standing in two TZs!

With four of them (exercising the option), funky stuff becomes possible, but the team's low movement and high vulnerability doesn't sound like a picnic. That still might be potent in the right hands... maybe I should drop the option.

This guy's weaker than the Thro-Ra. Maybe the team can handle 4 Mummies... or maybe something else instead, like cheaper RRs?

Relentless is too much for me. The concepts look cool, but if I'm gonna go wacky I want to do it with stuff that's already in the game.

So, take 3: better? If you hated the first one and still hate this, do you hate it more, less, or about as much? And which Tomb Priest (a or b) and Tomb Guardian (x, y or z)?

- 0-16 Skeletons @ 40k
- 0-2 Mummies @ 110k
- 0-2 Tomb Priests:
a) 6/3/3/7 Hypnotic Gaze, Nerves of Steel, GP, 70k
b) 6/3/3/8 Disturbing Presence, Nerves of Steel, GP 70k
- 0-2 Tomb Guardians:
x) 5/3/2/8 Block, Stand Firm, Regenerate, GS, 90k
y) 5/3/2/9 Block, Jump Up, Regenerate, GS, 90k
z) 5/3/2/8 Block, Foul Appearance, Regenerate, GS, 80k or 90k
- Necromancer, no Apo
- 60k RR

Options
- Mummy
- 1-2 Tomb Guardians
- Skel Assassin
- Star Player