ST should NOT be increased

[jaewer]

A thing that has bucked me for some time is the possibility that a player can have have his strength increased.

Of course this is nice to have, but this can change the game dramatically.
A wardancer with ST 4 or a dark elf blitzer with ST 4?
This changes the game too much - and gives a too big advantage - based on pure luck.

ST should be fixed for all players! (not including star players)

Increased MA, AG or AV does not have the same extreme impact.

Is this only me or?

[Magictobe]

I think many will disagree. There are some players that gain as much or maybe more advantage with AG like skinks, goblins, and do not underestimate elfs with +AG.

[Grumbledook]

I don't like stat increases in tournaments, but they are fine in league play

[lerchey]

I don't see where it's a problem. Any stat increase can theoretically have a dramatic effect on the game, long term (agree with G'dook that it's fine in league play - since I don't play tourneys, I have no opinion on them!) you have to pay for it. Further, in most cases the effect is not ... completely game altering. I had 2 ST 2 players on one team each gain +1 ST. Team still wins and loses at about 50% like it did before the stat games. OTOH, we've had one dwarf runner get +1 MA and +1 ST. Shouldn't be an invulnerable scoring machine (still has AV 8 and no Block!), but he is.

I like the occasional stat increase. It makes your special players... special.

[Rhyoth]

I wouldn't worry about that in league play where there is a self-regulation system called ... Death.

Indeed, those ST+ players (and AG+ players as well) tend to be hunted down by their angry opponents (who hadn't the same luck on their rolls).

So,if your stronger guy don't die whenever he crosses an angry Yhetee, or a "Cowman" in a good day, he will then suffer countless fouls, attacks from chainsaw, lightning bolts ...(or just lucky blocks from rookies) ... until he dies : problem solved.

Of course, in tournament, it's another story.

[Digger Goreman]

All stat increases are FUBAR.... 'Course I'm too advanced to be a power-gamer... or understand those who are....

[Deathwing]

I'm a fan of the possibility of creating home grown stars. Used to have a ST5 Delf Blitzer around these parts a few years back.....
Balanced? No. Legendary? Yes.... part of the fabric of local history now... (the memory still causes me shudders!).

I'd rather have the dice throw up the odd freak set of stats/skills and add a real character to the league rather than restricting to more generic players. Griff, Varag et al have been killed a million times and are yet immortal. Home grown Stars have one career and one death. Joe Bloggs lineman dies on a failed gfi? Who cares? AG5/ VLL/ +1MA/ Sprint Gutter Runner does the same and that's a 'memorable event' that causes wailing/rending of clothes or celebration (depending on your side of the fence).
If this was in 'house-rules' and it suits your league then fine (makes it a different discussion altogether).

[Alamar]

I would disagree that the problem is allowing players stats to increase per-se. I would argue that the difference between AG3 & AG4 or STR3 & STR4 are too large simply because the stats are compressed so much.

It would likely be too complicated to manage but if player STR went from 1 [Snotling] to 10 [Treeman] with a good range of players at the values in between then a random Beastman with +1 STR wouldn't be a big deal.

IMHO you could argue the same about AG ...

Devil's Advocate: To get a system that allows +STAT increases to be "not a big deal" you practically have to scrap everything and start over from scratch.

[mattgslater]

Sorry, changing the scale without changing the math won't have much of an effect on +ST. In fact, you'd have to change the way block dice are added up, and you'd have to change the meaning of an assist.

Better plan: Learn to game around all those stat increases. Sure, it's a big advantage when one guy gets all of them, but it's not the end of the world. The Undead team in my league with four +ST players (both Mummies, a Z and a Wight) is still only 7-4, and the same coach's Skaven team has the same record with a +AG Thrower and an AG5/ST3 Gutter Runner, and a similar overall record with his three developmental teams, with no stat increases between them (including 2-1-1 with Ogres).

+Stats are also a good thing in formats where there is a sub-competitive tier of coaches. +Stats add a sense of persistent randomness to the game, which is critical for these teams' success. Also, it's fun to see how different people use +stats differently. My Chaos team has an AG4 Beastman, and my buddy's Necro team has an AG4 Werewolf. The Necro team uses the Were as a cage-forward and outlet on offense and a highly mobile blitzer on defense. I use my Beastman as an "ace" passing fullback on O, and as a safety on defense who hawks the ball after I break it loose with somebody else.

[Alamar]

@Matt: You caught the intent of my post I see I would claim that with a larger spread the problem isn't AS BAD as before. For example if Cathers, Throwers, Blitzers could all have different strengths so a Thrower with the Strength of a Blitzer wouldn't be THAT big of a deal ...

I do tend to agree that if you redesign the system with more than just a few players with diffr strenghts then you consider what to do about that.

[stashman]

A thing that has bucked me for some time is the possibility that a player can have have his strength increased.

That makes the teams starplayers differ from ordinary players of the team. This is fluffy and creates characters in the leagues.

Of course this is nice to have, but this can change the game dramatically.
A wardancer with ST 4 or a dark elf blitzer with ST 4?
This changes the game too much - and gives a too big advantage - based on pure luck.

A wardancer is still AV7 and even with Block/Dodge you can put him to ground with a Wrestler and then just start foul him!

A DE Blitzer with ST4 is a great addition to the team, BUT the problem (even with the wardancer) is that many coaches are so afraid to loose them that sometimes they don't work for the team. I have hade some good players and I have lost alot of good players in league game, and sometimes I was to protective to use them at full strength. Saving the apo for the great player can make the team loose other players becouse of "saving the apo"

In my chaos dwarf team - Top Hats - I have a bullcentaur with ST5, AG4, Block, Tackle and with a Niggling. I can say that I never use him if I don't have to, and thats my weakness as his cost is 300.

[mattgslater]

@Matt: You caught the intent of my post I see I would claim that with a larger spread the problem isn't AS BAD as before. For example if Cathers, Throwers, Blitzers could all have different strengths so a Thrower with the Strength of a Blitzer wouldn't be THAT big of a deal ...

I do tend to agree that if you redesign the system with more than just a few players with diffr strenghts then you consider what to do about that.

Sure, but the difference between ST3 and ST4 are exactly the same whether there are just a few ST differences, or several.

[Digger Goreman]

Without stat upgrades, the one-turner would only be available to the TTM/RS teams....

A damned good improvement...!

[mattgslater]

Without stat upgrades, the one-turner would only be available to the TTM/RS teams....

A damned good improvement...!

What? Grab is a stat increase? All you need is MA8/Sprint on one guy and Grab on the other guy.

[nazgob]

its possible for norse to do it without either grap or sprint