Idea for Khorne Team

[graeme27uk]

Khorne team

16 50k Killer 6 3 3 8 Frenzy, Bloodlust
4 80k Bloodletter 6 4 2 8 Frenzy, Wild Animal, Bloodlust
4 110k Khorne Warrior 5 4 2 9 Frenzy, Wild Animal, Bloodlust, Juggernaut
1 150k Juggernaut 6 5 1 10 Frenzy, Wild Animal, Juggernaut, Stand Firm, Mighty Blow Loner, Break Tackle


Frenzy because they are Khorne and psychotic nutters.

Bloodlust because Khorne are so psychotic sometimes they attack their own. If BL is failed then they can "feed" on any player in their team.

Wild Animal because they are just even more psychotic.



Patchwork>> That's a lot of Wild Animal! Think what would happen again elves when they keep dodging away from you.

Graeme27uk>> Ok instead of Wild Animal how about Bonehead. Not that they are thick but just that they are psychoes and so not entirely with it....

Patchwork>> I wouldn't give them that either, if you had a full roster that would be 9 boneheads? Even with average luck you'd have at least one or two boneheading out a turn. I'd just leave it, too many negi traits, espicaly with all that Blood Lust. Actually I'd consider cutting back on the Bloodlust too, Vamp teams can self implode spectacularly with only a few vamps on the pitch. Everyone having it, except the big guy, seems to make it a matter of when, not if, they'll implode in a game.

Patchwork>> I understand that but I think you've given the Khrone team too much in negi traits and they'll be very predictabley poor every game.

Graeme27uk>> OK. So would just giving them Bloodlust be sufficient to balance them then? Or maybe give the Warriors and Linemen Bloodlust and give the Bloodletters Wild Animal.

Patchwork>> I don't know what I'd do with the Khrone roster. I'd definitly drop the Bloodlust off the linemen. Frenzy is enough for them, it can even be a negative at times on a roster where everyone has it. The Warriors and Bloodletters at worst should have only one negi trait each.

I'm not really liking it even with those changes though, still a huge amount of drawbacks without enough that I find interesting about it in return.

Graeme27uk>> The Khorne team needs to somehow represent the random violence and physicality of Khorne. There needs to be some sort of negative trait to represent the fact that the team is a bunch of bloodthirsty self-destructive psychopaths (even more so than a normal BB team!).

[Darkson]

Juggernaut is well under-costed - compare it to a minotaur.

(Removing same results)
150k Juggernaut 6 1 10 Juggernaut, Stand Firm, Break Tackle

1 Minotaur 150 5 2 8 Horns, Thick Skull

Three skills, +1 MA and +2 AV to replace +1 AG and 2 (poorer) skills - Jugger over mino any day!

And as someone said earlier today, you need to post skill access for the players as well, makes a difference on whether a player/team is balanced or not.

I think you need to go and read these pages: http://www.midgardbb.com/BloodBowlPlayers.html

[graeme27uk]

Juggernaut is well under-costed - compare it to a minotaur.

(Removing same results)
150k Juggernaut 6 1 10 Juggernaut, Stand Firm, Break Tackle

1 Minotaur 150 5 2 8 Horns, Thick Skull

Three skills, +1 MA and +2 AV to replace +1 AG and 2 (poorer) skills - Jugger over mino any day!

And as someone said earlier today, you need to post skill access for the players as well, makes a difference on whether a player/team is balanced or not.

I think you need to go and read these pages: http://www.midgardbb.com/BloodBowlPlayers.html

Those are from the prior versions not LRB6.

[Joemanji]

Still a good starting point.

[graeme27uk]

Still a good starting point.

true enough. I am now constructing my own version based on this. Should not be too hard restro-engineering this.

[graeme27uk]

OK so now...

Khorne Juggernaut

6 5 1 10 Frenzy, Wild Animal, Thick Skull, Juggernaut, Mighty Blow, Loner, Break Tackle

This comes out to 130k

A minotaur comes out to 110k

This is on both calculations (JJ's and the bigger excel sheet).

As such is it that a Minotaur is overpriced?

If we gave the same "discount" to the Juggernaut then that makes the Jugger worth 160k

[mattgslater]

OK so now... [silly attempt to peg team balancing into a formula]

Really, man. Don't bother. That doesn't tell you anything. Look how many skills the guy has, how good they are, how much combo value they have, who's kind of like that, go from there, and you'll be a million times more accurate in your balancing.

[Darkson]

A minotaur comes out to 110k

This is on both calculations (JJ's and the bigger excel sheet).

As such is it that a Minotaur is overpriced?

Iirc, all BGs had a 50% "tax" on their cost added during the playtest days of LRB5.

[graeme27uk]

OK so now... [silly attempt to peg team balancing into a formula]

Really, man. Don't bother. That doesn't tell you anything. Look how many skills the guy has, how good they are, how much combo value they have, who's kind of like that, go from there, and you'll be a million times more accurate in your balancing.

Just going on suggestions from other posts.

[Alamar]

I like the thought but boy that would be some team to play

Normally I'd suggest looking through the team lists and see if there is a team that is sort of close to what you want and use that as a template. I haven't thought hard about Nurgle but they would be something to look at as a template. I'll leave that as an excersize for someone else though

My thoughts are you probably need:
-- Some linemen types ... maybe something like a Chaos Pact Marauder???
-- Bloodletters ... they should be fearsome / Frenzy & Blood Lust may be workable?????
-- Khorne Warriors ... Maybe standard Chaos Warriors with Frenzy???
-- A Juggy .... you just gotta have it and it should be unique


Theorybowling away I'd go:

0-16 Marauders 6338 GS / MAP Cost 50K [maybe 60K?]

0-2 Blood Letters 6428 Frenzy, Blood Lust GS / --- Cost 90K [maybe 100K?]
0-2 Khorne CW 5429 Frenzy GSM / AP Cost 110K

0-1 Juggy 4 5 1 10
Skills Loner, Frenzy, Wild Animal, No Hands, Juggy, Break Tackle, Thick Skull
Skill Access S / GAM ...
Cost is a good question ... -1 MV, -1 AG, +2 AV, No Hands, -MB, -Horns, +Juggy, + BT .. Hard to say without testing but 160K??

Team RRs: 70K [They need cheaper RRs but I can't in good conscience see this team getting "coached"]

[yumi_cheeseman]

an entire team with both blood lust and wild animal will be soooo frustrating for both coaches. One who has to play this stupid team that never moves anywhere. The other has to wait for 2 hours because every player movement requires 2 rolls.

[Greyhound]

The problem with your jug's is that they have little weakness.

Wild Animal => encourage a blitz. No more Horns on the team => keep the blitz for the Jug.
Following that OH, beauty the jug has Juggernaut, a skill reducing the risk of turnover on blitz...
Juggernaut marries very well with the beautiful Frenzy.

Frenzy on a big guy can lead them into 2 difficult spots:
- being out in the open, blocked then fouled... but gorgeous the Jug has AV10!
- stuck close to the sideline... perfect he can dodge out with Break Tackle right at the end of its turn.

Basically the guy has no, or little flaws. No hands is NOT a negatrait on a Big Guy with AG1, so let's not fool ourselves that this could be a drawback.

How would you build him? Mighty Blow will come first, then essentially you don't really care, maybe Guard and Stand Firm, but he's essentially good out of the box.

If you want a JUG big guy, you're going to have to be tougher on the big guy. Give him a speed of 4 for instance. Frenzy will become a lot more difficult with limited movement, think deathroller here.
+) ST5, AV10, Thick Skull (awesome stats, TS is like extra AV even against claws)
+) Frenzy, Juggernaut (awesome skills to blitz)
+) Break Tackle (can't be tied down, will break into cages right from level 1)
+) Mutation access on a double
-) AG1, although I never really noticed much difference between AG1 and AG2
-) Loner
-) Wild Animal, arguably the best nega-trait if you look at a blitzing piece like the jug
-) no General access unless you roll a double
-) No Hands, to be fair if all my big guy had No Hands I wouldn't cry too badly. I have seen Big guy intercept or pick up a bouncing ball but it's not a strategy I'd build on.

So think about it does a 4.5.1.10 Frenzy, Juggernaut, Break Tackle, monster seem unworthy? Or does he absolutely need his 5 movement?

[Alamar]

So think about it does a 4.5.1.10 Frenzy, Juggernaut, Break Tackle, monster seem unworthy? Or does he absolutely need his 5 movement?

My Juggy for 160K might even be too good .... 4.5.1.10 Loner, Wild Animal, No Hands, Frenzy, Juggy 150K-160K sound better?? I think Break Tackle fits but as you point out it may be too good because of all the synergies there.

Thoughts??

[graeme27uk]

So think about it does a 4.5.1.10 Frenzy, Juggernaut, Break Tackle, monster seem unworthy? Or does he absolutely need his 5 movement?

My Juggy for 160K might even be too good .... 4.5.1.10 Loner, Wild Animal, No Hands, Frenzy, Juggy 150K-160K sound better?? I think Break Tackle fits but as you point out it may be too good because of all the synergies there.

Thoughts??

I think reflecting on this there is too much synergy there than the points would describe.

How about...

4 5 1 9 No Hands, Frenzy, Wild Animal, Juggernaut 150k SM/AGP

[Grumbledook]

no hands players kinda of got removed from the game, see the unicorn off the amazon team

the skill is there for players who can't pick up the ball due to having their hands full of weaponry

but seeing as these won't see officialdom anyway knock yourself out ;]

would have thought a frenzy mino was fitting enough for khorne anyway