Triple simple undead team fix

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
there has been a lot of discussion regarding the 3 new undead teams. While I quite agree with all of them being unbalanced, I'm not too fond of the fixes suggested so far. Therefore I've come up with some "simple" fixes - I hope you like them.

1 - Necromantic
7 key players without regeneration is just too much. Reduce this to 4, like the old undead team. and they should be able to survive a little longer.

My solution is replace 2 ghouls with 2 werewolves, (removing the last were). Even though the weres are better than the ghouls, the loss of the 11th position player should be a sufficient loss to allow the flesh golems to gain regeneration.


2 - Khemri
The Khemri seem to be able to dish it out a bit too well, even if they do have a hard time scoring. It has been suggested to drop the teams AG3 players to AG2, but that won't stop the carnage. IMO, the problematic mummies should be dealt with directly.

My solution is to give the mummies a negative trait, just like the other mighty blow + ST5 players. My suggestion is:
*Shambling*: The player may not attempt to go for it.

This will make it easier to steer clear of the mummies, and will make piling on somewhat less appealing to them.


3 - the vampires
I actually find that Jervis is reasonably close to the mark with this one.
IMO, the problem with the vampire team has always been OFAB, since it will very often put one of the coaches in a bad position.

It has been suggested to change OFAB, but while the new rules look appealing, I do think that they cause too much havoc for the coach. Having to pass multiple 2+ rolls on each turn doesn't make for very good Blood Bowl in my opinion.

My suggestion is simply to remove OFAB, along with 2 vampires, so that the team will "always" field its 'average' of 4 vampires. Also, prices should be changed, so that the coach has to pay roughly the same field his 4 vamp + lord average. (Lord: 180K, Vamps: 150K).
The 4 vamp max will ensure that the team does not have spare vamps once the first batch has been dealt with.

Finally, I'd remove the teams apothecary (+ it's special rule), alonf with the special rules regarding the vampire head coach.


How do you like this?
Martin

[Trambi]

In my mind the necromantic and the vampire team should be the same.
So only two undead teams : old word undead and khemri team.
But I like to consider that mummies are big guys so why not a negative trait !

[Mestari]

Personally, I see negative traits as a necessary evil which need to be installed only when absolutely necessary.

Therefore: instead of giving mummies a negative trait, remove MB from them. The statistical effect of removing MB (especiallya after acquiring PO) is definitely sufficient to keep the team in check strengthwise. But I'd remove the AG3 from the skeletons too. This should be the <=AG2 team

Vampires. Even with four vampires the basic problem doesn't go away - the vampires are extremely powerful - four ST4AG4-players on the pitch... think about it. That team needs the COFAB rule. It's a simple fix.

Necromantics. The MBBL test version gets my vote.

[Munkey]

I've heard a lot about these teams but not seen any rules for them except for the Vampire team in BB Mag 4, are these rules from previous BB Mags?

If not where might I find a copy?

[Colin]

The Necromatic Undead and Khemri teams are found in BBmag3, which can be ordered from Canadian or US MO, if not available in UK.

[plasmoid]

Hi Mestari and Trambi - thanks for your comments:

Trambi, check out my new thread on Khemri teams, posted in a few minutes.

Mestari:
1) Necromantic.
I like the MBBL version just fine, and if that becomes the official fix then thats all well and good. My only problem with it is that it _radically_ changes the function of the werewolves away from the intent of the designer.
But it's OK

2) Vampires
I don't think that the team would be too good.
We've experimented with vamps for a long time around these parts, and IMO the 4vamps + lord roster is pretty reasonable.
When in their strongest formation, they'll still be fielding 6 "hobgobs".
In comparison a CD team in its strongest formation fields only 2 hobgobs.

I think that this team is fine - but if not, then removing AG skills from the vamps will definately make it balanced. Either way, I much prefer a "normal player" approach to an approach based on the balancing factor of multiple 2+ rolls.

3) Khemri
OK - this is where I don't get it.
You think that cOFAB is a splendid solution (even though "negative skills are to be avoided") - but giving the mummies a negatrait is unacceptable?

IMO, the negatrait suggested for mummies directly adresses the problems with the Khemri team. Very importantly the coach also knows exactly what it does, so he isn't at the mercy of some random rolls. He knows the effect - as does his opponent.

COFAB on the vampire team - on the other hand - leaves the coach with a team core of players suffering from a very drastic, erratic and game-changing effect.
To me that makes for some awful Blood Bowl.

Martin

[Grumbledook]

I don't think any choas dwarf coach would take to the pitch with only 2 hobgoblins, seeing as they are the only ones with ag3.

[BigD]

If the Undead Mummies are going to be treated as Big Guys because of the strength then maybe the same should be done for Black Orc Blockers? And the fact that you can have 4 obviously just makes them too powerful!

That was sarcism folks!

Come on, the Undead only have the two of them. And they're not cheap either. If you've eer played Undead you'll know they're the slowest players on the team anyway and quite a bit of the time you need to blitz to use them. So they're not cheap players at all!

How are you going to treat the Khemri Mummies as Big Guys as well? What about the Bull Centaurs then? And they're fast as well.

Deal with it!

[plasmoid]

Hi BigD,

I was talking about Jervis new experimental rules.
In those, there is no Undead team with 2 mummies.

There is however a Khemri team with 4 - a team that a lot of coaches have found to be too powerful because of the mummies.

To me, there is a clear line between ST5+ players with mighty blow (which all of the big guys have), and players with ST4 and no MB - a profile that fits none of the big guys.

Martin

[Grumbledook]

Be simpler to make 2 of the mummies st4 with no mighty blow then and leave 2 as they are.

[GalakStarscraper]

COFAB on the vampire team - on the other hand - leaves the coach with a team core of players suffering from a very drastic, erratic and game-changing effect.
To me that makes for some awful Blood Bowl.

Martin .. then you are really going to hate the Ogre team when it comes out eh?

My bias is clear on this one for a number of these.

COFAB fixes the Vampire team just fine and despite what Martin argues, I found COFAB fun to play with/against after 3 games with/against Vampire teams to date. In no way shape or form did I find it Bad Blood Bowl. Also the 2+ negatrait is a very common thing in BB, so its not like Cervidal invented something out of the blue here.

The MBBL Necro team gets my vote hands down. As for the Martin's suggestion that the Were is against the designer's thoughts ... well let's be more specific. Jervis also designed the stats for the Were in the 2nd edition rules also. The Were in the MBBL is just a 2nd edition Were without Mighty Blow, so to say we are going against the designer isn't accurate. We are just encouraging the designer to go back to the old design that the had.

Finally the Khemri, we are kicking the tires on the following change to the Khemri in the MBBL:
1) All the AG 3 players get AG 2 (much like Martin suggested)
2) In order to reduce the hitting power of the Mummies: replace Mighty Blow with Foul Appearance. This lessens their ability to dish out the damage AND its very very much in the history of the Mummy as both the 1st and 2nd edition Mummy players had Foul Appearance, it was not until 3rd that they lost it.

Galak

[Cervidal]

From what I have observed, Khemri are in no way overpowered:

1) Most of the team is AV 7 and AG 2, making them very vulnerable to getting thrashed, even with Regeneration.

2) There are only 4 AG 3 positions on the team, giving them all the same vulerabilities as Dwarves, except there is no team-wide armor to protect these valued players.

3) The team is not very mobile. The team lacks MA or the AG to get themselves where they want to go in a pinch.

If you're going to do anything to the team, drop the AV of the position players down. There is no need to try to weaken the mummies. They're the only real strength of the team.

[martynq]

Hmm, I'm not convinced that they aren't overpowered. Just look at what Dave is doing with them in the MBBL and you can see the problem. Give each mummy piling on as their first skill and then once you have four, you can destroy the opposition and easily win the match.

I think the khemri are overpowered, but need considerably different tactics to standard teams.

Cheers,
Martyn

[plasmoid]

Hi Galak and all,

>Martin .. then you are really going to hate the Ogre team when it comes
>out eh?
Why yes, if they all have bonehead I sure am

>Also the 2+ negatrait is a very common thing in BB, so its not like
>Cervidal invented something out of the blue here.

Agreed. And Kudos to Cervidal.
But what I don't like is a 2+ negatrait on so many players - specifically all of the important ones.

>The Were in the MBBL is just a 2nd edition Were without Mighty Blow, so
>to say we are going against the designer isn't accurate. We are just
>encouraging the designer to go back to the old design that the had.

As I said, I like the MBBL OK. It looks quite sensible, although I did love the thought of a player with both thick skull and regen.

Finally - the Khemri.
IMO, reducing all of the AG3 players to AG2 is too harsh. I prefer targetting the problem area (i.e. the mummies). A team which has to rely on 4+ pick ups can be very disappointing to play.
But cutting 2 of them to AG2 might be OK. I might even prefer having the throwers at AG2......

As for the mummies, I quite like foul appearance on them
But it is not a bad skill by any means, and it only postpones the Pion+mighty problem. It may be enough, but I'm not too sure.

I've actually played with a team with 4 mummies for 50 or so matches, and even with the old piling on they were devastating. I'd really love to see them lose the ability to GFI. It would make it easier to avoid them, and it would make PiOn slightly less attractive.

Martin

[Kamikaze Rudy]

I personally think that the rule that plasmoid suggested with mummies not being able to "go for it" is a wonderful idea. Let's face it, Mummies have been terribly overpowered for a long time now. The only ST 5 player that has no negative skill. Now a team gets 4 of them? Fine, but there should be a drawback to it. Limiting their ability to stand up and blitz is a small enough of an adjustment to keep them from being overpowered and to keep the Pile On skill honest.

Thank goodness Jump Up was turned into a trait. I hated seeing Pile On, Jump Up Mummies.