Talk Fantasy Football

Posted: **Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:57 pm**

NEW STUFF
So, I've taken the ideas of others into account and I've made changes to everything. The Empire of Cathay is far to the east (but not across any seas, we don't want to confuse it Nippon, so no Sumo or Ninjas). Like other nations of this world, the Empire is involved in Blood Bowl, but unlike other nations, the sport is tightly controlled by the Dynasty and so Blood Bowl is only played by those that pass rigorous physical and mental tests, as well as they loyalty to the Empire and the Emperor. At times, the lure of Blood Bowl is so strong that even students and young monks from distant monasteries are drawn in to play for sponsored teams. With a level of professionalism not seen in many other teams, (and cash) these teams play hard, with each team member playing a part in getting victory. Many of the positional have Pass Access, so any player could develop into a throw, and with many positionals starting with Nerves of Steel, picking up the ball when surrounded by opponents is an option, as is throwing that ball out of the same situation.

0-16 Linesman 60k 6 / 3 / 3 / 8 Nerves of Steel, GP/AS
0-2 Runner 80k 7 / 3 / 3 / 7 Dump-Off, Nerves of Steel, GAP/S
0-4 Blitzer 90k 6 / 3 / 3 / 9 Block, Nerves of Steel, GSP/A
0-2 Monk 100k 6 / 3 / 4 / 7 Dauntless, Jump Up, Thick Skull, GA/SP
Rerolls - 50k

Starting Team Examples
4 Linesmen
1 Runner
4 Blitzers
2 Monks
2 Rerolls
Total Cost 980k, with 20k in the bank for future purchases.

Previous

Far in the East, over the hills and mountains (but not past the sea, because that is too far) lies a large mighty kingdom. And like all other great peoples of the world, it realizes the great importance that is Blood Bowl.

I present the Cathay Blood Bowl Team.

0-16 Linesman - 50k - 5 / 3 / 3 / 8 - Nerves of Steel, G/ASP
0-2 Thrower - 70k - 6 / 3 / 3 / 8 - Nerves of Steel, Pass, GP/AS
0-2 Catcher - 80k - 7 / 3 / 3 / 7 - Dodge, Nerves of Steel, GA/SP
0-2 Blitzer - 80k - 5 / 3 / 3 / 9 - Block, Nerves of Steel, GS/AP
0-2 Monk - 110k - 6 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Dauntless, Leap, Mighty Blow, GA/SP

Rerolls - 50k

The Cathay are a team with Mass Nerves of Steel (Notes, although I follow Tom's Rules http://forum.bloodbowl-game.com/viewtop ... =457#p3824, I did discount the cost of Nerves of Steel, from 20k to 10k, everything else should be according to the rules). This allows them to pass into and out of scrums, which might let your at risk thrower or catcher give the ball to a passing blitzer or Monk. On top of that, if the ball pops free, your Cathay team has a better chance of grabbing the ball because of the lack of penalty. On the downside, the team has a lower average speed, with both blitzers and linesmen having only a top movement of 5, and even the monk has only got a movement of 6.

The Players:

Linesmen - You basic player. Not that different from your human linesmen, but with lower movement and Nerves of Steel. The end result is a higher chance of intercepting the ball, or catching a ball in a scrum. The only other benefit is that the linesman is better able to get rid of the ball if he is surrounded.

Throwers - For 20k, you get Pass, Pass Skill Access and +1 Movement. A pretty good bargain. With Nerves of Steel, they get the option of running it further into the opposing team before throwing it. This could mean shorter passes that have a better chance of succeeding. Finally, with all the other players also having NoS, the options for who to pass to is also a lot larger.

Catchers - The only player on the team with 7 armor, making him a little fragile. On the other hand, he has both Dodge and NoS. For a catcher, this might mean the difference between a long pass or a short one, since now, the marked catcher has the same chance of getting the ball as an unmarked catcher. He can get the ball, and then move away, instead of moving away first (and make the throw harder to catch). Dodge is one of the essential skills in the game, and he has it.

Blitzers - One of the few Blitzer types that isn't faster than the linesmen, it might be more accurate to call him a blocker. Still at 80k, he is pretty cheap, and has the all important Strength access and Block Skill. NoS doesn't help a ton, but if that ball pops free, and comes to him, even in a scrum, he'll have a good chance of catching it.

Monk - The only player with out NoS, the Monk starts the game with 4 agility, and Agility Access. He could be the ball handle, but with Leap, Mighty Blow and Dauntless, you know he is all about getting into the cage, and breaking it up. Coming from the Monasteries, the Monk doesn't have the same training as other Cathay Blood Bowl Players (that is to say, a lack of NoS), but instead has mastered the art of taking down opponents much bigger than him (Dauntless) with a single powerful blow (Mighty Blow) and being able to leap around almost at will. He still needs some pointers, such as dodging and blocking, but he has a great start.

The Team.

It is a slower team (not dwarf slow, but Orc Slow), but with Mass NoS, it can be a short passing team. Still, neither the catchers, nor the throwers have Ag. 4, so it is something of a risk. 50k Rerolls should make the start of the season a bit easier, till you get the skills you need to deal with bigger foes (guard, stand firm, Catch, Accurate and the like). I fore see this team being tier 2, and as soon as I figure out how, I'm going to try it out on BB:LE against the AI (and win).

Otherwise, all comments ideas and points of view are welcome (even the harsh ones).

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:44 am**

Your monks only have AG 3 in the team roster, but AG 4 in the fluff text.

As a playstyle point, your low speed means much less with two movement 7 catchers. One of the *major* disadvantages of a low speed race is that you can't 2 turn reliably...and with a good thrower and MV 7 catchers, with this roster, you can.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:11 am**

Oops, sorry about that.

It's true the catchers have 7 movement, and I could make the 6 / 3 / 3/ 8 for the same cost.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:17 am**

Okay, now that makes sense.

Some thoughts then:

Major complaint: Monk is a too good.

I accept the rest of the team is rubbish, but there's certainly no other team that starts with a AG 4 MB player (or even AG 4 St access!). With 3 skills, he's block/tackle/dodge/mb/leap/dauntless...which is quite a T1 combination. I'd minmax the heck out of this roster.
2 blitzers for po/mb/guard,
2 Monks with block/tackle/dodge,
7 rookie linos
2 RRs (50k)

1110k.

Are you really sure you'd want to face that team with a 110k team? I think far from being a T2 team like you envisage, that would be a monster to deal with, and it's not even hard to build! The monks will naturally score, and the blitzers naturally gain cas.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:50 am**

Spam NOS and another Ag4 Leaper....

Lazy and Crazy...

Two thumbs down, easily....

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:49 am**

Crazy, I can't argue with, but I'm very offended by the lazy comment. Still, it is the price you pay for putting anything online I guess.

NoS 'spam' as you call it was necessary to create a team that would actually pass the ball and not have much in the way of agility. You have the ag 4 monks, but as you can see, they don't have NoS (although they might be a little too OP. Like Hitonagashi suggested, they were a way to compensate for the NoS players that might be subpar players in other positions). I looked at many other skills for what I felt would fit the theme of the Cathay, a strong independent nation in the far east. You basic skills were either too limited in use (dauntless or fend on everybody?) or too good (I thought about Stand Firm on everyone to represent what I believe is the stoic nature of this team might be overboard). I settled on NoS because it affects a many different types of play, on defense or offense, and allow different styles of play (you move that ball around a bit more if you don't have to worry about the penalties of being next to the opponent). I also felt it wasn't way overpowered, which would allow me to build a 5 / 3 / 3 / 8 Linesman for 50k instead of the very boring usualy 6 / 3 / 3 / 7 you see in the norse and Amazons.

But I'm sure that my 'spamming' of NoS was not thematic at all, or incredible well thought of, but instead 'lazy' as Digger pointed out. If only I was as thorough in thinking through this team, as Digger was in point out its flaws, maybe I wouldn't have created such as 'crazy and lazy' team design. Ah well, we can't all be like him.

As to the monk, you are right, Mighty Blow has never been seen before on a Ag. Piece. It is one of the two reasons I gave him Mighty Blow. The second reason is that that I felt that the Monk is a player that could perform a "mighty blow' if you will. A powerful strike far greater then his strength 3 would indicate. I guess Dauntless also portrays that aspect of the Monk. The idea was Agility Stat Lines with skills that are more strength and damage based. And despite the venting earlier, I'm open to changes and suggestions and ideas.

One idea for the monks would be to give them Dauntless, Grab and Side Step. It would represent the Monks ability to throw opponents and his own ability to land where he thinks is best.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:57 am**

Hmmm. I don't know. It looks like you're going for a rugby style here, so let's start from that and not from fluff. I've no idea what Cathay is, but here's where I'd go with this;

0-16 Lineman 60k 6338 Nerves of Steel GP/AS
0-2 Runner 90k 7337 Pass Block, Catch, Nerves of Steel GAP/S
0-2 Hooker 90k 6338 Side Step, Dump Off, Nerves of Steel GP/AS
0-2 Kicker 90k 6338 Kick, Kick-Off Return, Nerves of Steel GP/AS
0-2 Blocker 90k 6339 Wrestle, Nerves of Steel GPS/A
Rerolls 50k, Apoth=Y

They don't really have much of a passing game, but they're very manouverable. Hard to pin the ball down against them, too. No-one sticks out as more important than anyone else; they're all there to do a job, and that's reflected in price.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:41 pm**

Cathay is a nation in the Warhammer Universe, which had/has a tenuous link to BB. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathay_(Warhammer)

I guess it would be a more rugby play style but I'd want to keep the positionals Bloodbowl friendly, but I will take it too heart to spread the love more across the different positionals. I also like the idea of having Dump Off, since everyone has NoS.

Something I thought about this morning.

Code: Select all

0-16 Linesman - 50k - 5 / 3 / 3 / 8 - Nerves of Steel,   GP/AS
0-2  Runner -  80k - 6 / 3 / 3 / 8 - Dump-Off, Nerves of Steel,     GAP/AS
0-4  Blitzer -  80k - 5 / 3 / 3 / 9 - Block, Nerves of Steel, GSP/AP
0-4  Monk -    100k - 6 / 3 / 4 / 8 - Dauntless, Grab, GA/SP

I meant to have 4 Blitzers originally. I mistyped again.
Instead of Catchers and Throwers, everyone has Pass access except the monks. It makes them a little different from other teams, and Pass access isn't that great, outside of Leadership.
Dump off instead of dodge on the new Runners means they can take advantage of NoS on everyone more easily, and should reduce the risk of turn over if they are out on there own for some reason.
Reduced the max movement to 6, because I do want to create a slower, more methodical team.
Monks are reduced in power by removing MB and Leap, and giving them Grab, a decent skill, but not anywhere near the power that Leap and MB would have.

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 6:35 pm**

I think you have too many positionals. Only 3/24 rosters have 10+ positionals (exc Big Guy), which makes 8 or fewer a pretty solid rule of thumb, to me.

I also think you have an opportunity here to find a home for some of the lesser used skills. Wrestle is both more monk-y and rugby-y than block. Pass block is never taken, but on a player dedicated to aiming for interceptions you can see it happening. I like the idea that there's a team here that's taken a totally different approach to the game than the teams in Amorica and as such has BB-style positionals that don't exist in the main game - perhaps forwards, flankers, hookers, that sort of thing.

Anyway, back to your theme. I'm not quite sure what it is you're trying to achieve with the Monk - I don't get a feel for them either thematically or practically. Also, carrying AG4 players with NoS undermines your dumpoff game. Perhaps go for a player that changes positioning dynamics?

0-2 Monk 100k 6338 Side Step, Grab, Nerves of Steel GASP/

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:34 pm**

Just as a note: Albion rugby team

Posted: **Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:45 pm**

legowarrior wrote:Crazy, I can't argue with, but I'm very offended by the lazy comment.

Well, we all choose how we wish to feel....

legowarrior wrote:Digger .... Ah well, we can't all be like him.

For most that is simply a statistical variation on genetics... for you... hmmm, perhaps a necessity...? Certainly it would be an improvement on your repartee and wit.... Not even up to "half" yet....

Ok, I'm through counter-tweaking your tail... let's help you on a better design (at least partially)....

As stated, spamming is unimaginative and there are too many positionals.... Also, Ag4 + Leap is the cheese ala fromage.... Let's not calcify like a woodie bore-dancer....

So, being a huge fan of the orient, at least their ancient philosophy, martial arts and wu-shu movies, let's see (names simply for the sake of thematics, change as wanted):

Peasants/Linemen: 0-16 5337 Dauntless G 50k; The "coolie"/villager is a weakling in the movies that, nevertheless, could find the "heart" (dauntless) to at least lay a smack on the villain till the true heroes showed up.... Alternatively go to 40k and take away Dauntless....

Sumo Blitzer (big tough....): 0-2 6438 Juggernaut, Stand Firm GS 110k; No need to elaborate, this is thematic to the max....

Village Leader: 0-2 6338 Pro, Leader GP 70k; The old, cool-headed manager that often outwits the bandits and organizes the village defense....

Shao-lin Monks: 0-2 7337 Dodge, Sidestep GA 80k; Quick, agile and slippery....

Thematic, if nothing else....

Posted: **Sun Oct 21, 2012 1:11 am**

And of course, there's Araby and Nippon.

Posted: **Sun Oct 21, 2012 3:26 am**

Hmmm. Those rosters leave me cold. I'm a big fan of clean, unique racial/tribal traits. Looking at these rosters I can't pull out an identity, just relative strengths.

I suppose I'm the opposite to digger in that respect. I feel that unappealing design lies in teams NOT based around their own line template, with an exaggeration or two perhaps thrown in for good measure.

Skaven, Orcs, Slann are good. Elves, Dwarves and Khemri have the right ingredients. Khorne are close, but let's not get into that. Amazons and Norse still don't sit quite right with me, but again the basics are in place.

Posted: **Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:05 am**

Digger Goreman wrote:
legowarrior wrote:Crazy, I can't argue with, but I'm very offended by the lazy comment.
Well, we all choose how we wish to feel....

legowarrior wrote:Digger .... Ah well, we can't all be like him.
For most that is simply a statistical variation on genetics... for you... hmmm, perhaps a necessity...? Certainly it would be an improvement on your repartee and wit.... Not even up to "half" yet....

Ok, I'm through counter-tweaking your tail... let's help you on a better design (at least partially)....

As stated, spamming is unimaginative and there are too many positionals.... Also, Ag4 + Leap is the cheese ala fromage.... Let's not calcify like a woodie bore-dancer....

So, being a huge fan of the orient, at least their ancient philosophy, martial arts and wu-shu movies, let's see (names simply for the sake of thematics, change as wanted):

Peasants/Linemen: 0-16 5337 Dauntless G 50k; The "coolie"/villager is a weakling in the movies that, nevertheless, could find the "heart" (dauntless) to at least lay a smack on the villain till the true heroes showed up.... Alternatively go to 40k and take away Dauntless....

Sumo Blitzer (big tough....): 0-2 6438 Juggernaut, Stand Firm GS 110k; No need to elaborate, this is thematic to the max....

Village Leader: 0-2 6338 Pro, Leader GP 70k; The old, cool-headed manager that often outwits the bandits and organizes the village defense....

Shao-lin Monks: 0-2 7337 Dodge, Sidestep GA 80k; Quick, agile and slippery....

Thematic, if nothing else....

If you wanted to mix the to cultures of Nippon and Cathay together, maybe. Obviously there is a huge difference, Sumo not being found outside of Japan, and China of the time period that Cathay represent being more of a meritocracy, with a nation run by bureaucrats. Peasants wouldn't be playing Bloodbowl, and since Cathay would be able to afford professional players, at least more so than any elf or dwarf team (which has only a few none positional players), you should find positions rather than 'peasants' and 'peasant leader'.

You have to keep in mind that Cathay is a rich and powerful nation, probably putting even the high elves to shame. Hence, everyone gets rich ornate armor, armor that is strong, but also slows the players down (M 5 and Armor

. These players are fearless, and devoted to their emperor, and the nation, believing themselves better than all other nations (Nerves of Steel) and train hard to move that ball forward (everyone gets Pass Access).

The monks are from local Monasteries, and show up to bring glory and fortune to their regions (so just monks, not Sho-lin Monks, or tiger monks, but generic, to represent different orders and organizations).

No big guys because they are would deem any large guy unnecessary to their victory, and 10 positionals because they are filthy rich and organized. (Although I can see the merits to cutting it down to 2 Monks, but then I want to buff them back to 110, just so players will have to make hard decisions at the start of a team, what to put in it).

Finally, a well organized team would have cheap rerolls.

I should post this in the first thread, to show the design philosophy behind the team. A basic linesmen, with variations for the different positions, while the Monks come from a different background, and would have a different skill set and/or stat line.

Posted: **Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:55 am**

legowarrior wrote:One idea for the monks would be to give them Dauntless, Grab and Side Step. It would represent the Monks ability to throw opponents and his own ability to land where he thinks is best.

This sort of thing is more interesting. But you could go further
6/3/4/7 Wrestle, Grab A/GSP 90k? (Or higher?)
I would have thought AV 8 too high for a monk, the skills above show them moving people around and having only A access controls their development somewhat.

But as has been pointed out above min maxing should always be a concern. Anyway is Cathy supposed to be more Japan than china in the WFB 1980's view of the world?

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