Piling On equalizer

[Cervidal]

I have to admit, I am taking this idea from a conversation I had with JKL, but I"m tweaking it just a bit.

What about making Piling On a foul-like ability?

Link Piling On into IGMEOY. If I foul you, the eye is on me. If you Pile On me, the eye is on you. If you use the Piling On skill, you roll for ejection like normal.

If you think Piling On won't be used anymore, I think you'd be suprised. An S3 player with Piling On and Mighty Blow is able to deliver a pretty devistating hit without any assists to increase the armor value.

This would also eliminate the 'before or after' debate as to when you use Piling On. The skill could now be used 'after' the die roll without complaint.

[Zombie]

If you use it after the dice roll, you'll always have complaints! It just doesn't make any sense at all for it to be used that way, because the position of the player on the field is changed as a result of this skill.

Just bring it back to before the dice roll and you'll never have complaints about its level of power again.

[wesleytj]

I have to admit, I am taking this idea from a conversation I had with JKL, but I"m tweaking it just a bit.

What about making Piling On a foul-like ability?

i suggested this same thing a few months ago, except that you can't be ejected for piling on, it just switches the eye if it's not on you already. if the eye is already on you and you pile on, nothing happens.

that way it's not quite as bad as fouling, but still carries some foul-like consequences with it. to me that's the correct balance.

[Cervidal]

To Zombie:
No, I really don't think you would have any complaints if you risked ejection after using the skill. In addition, you would be unlikely to see more than one player pile on in a turn, and maybe three or four times in a half.

Besides, if any big guy or S4 player uses Piling On before or after the die roll, odds are they're going to break armor. I don't see a huge percentage chance of failure enough to make such debate worthwhile.

[DoubleSkulls]

I think its one of the reasonable solutions to make PO a little less powerful.

Others:

Pre Av prone - it means you are prone a lot more and this decreases the effectiveness. This is the way ECBBL play it and its fine for S4 players but we haven't had enough S5 PO players to tell.

Trait - Leave it alone, just make it a Strength trait. Reducing the numbers of PO mummies because there are so many good alternatives on a double (SF, Dodge, Frenzy, Leader etc).

After The Blood Bowl when my Orc team finished with 4 players against a pair of PO mummies I feel it definitely needs tweaking.

[Marcus]

The IGMEOY element is handy in that it always ensures you have a 5/6 foul attempt versus the piled on player. The current argument that there is enough risk vs reward with piling on is flawed I feel. By making sure your opponent has a decent chance to foul you back it would certainly help. You do, however, have to worry about teams with Piling On and Dirty Player - Pile on to draw the foul, get fouled, foul back with the eye off you....

I much prefer ensuring the player piles on before armour is rolled. I understand the desire to rationalise skill rolls so they all work the same way, but I just feel the skill makes more sense this way, and carries a nice risk element.

As Ian mentioned, the ECBBL plays with the decision to pile on made before the armour roll, similarly the decision to Diving Tackle is made before the dodge roll. I think these are both special cases (the player is placed prone) that deserve exceptions to the rule.

It's not an inconcievable idea. You declare passblock after the action is declared but before the pass roll, so it's no big deal to have to declare Diving Tackle after the action is declared but before the dodge roll, and declare Piling On after the block is resolved but before the armour roll.

[Zombie]

To Zombie:
No, I really don't think you would have any complaints if you risked ejection after using the skill. In addition, you would be unlikely to see more than one player pile on in a turn, and maybe three or four times in a half.

Besides, if any big guy or S4 player uses Piling On before or after the die roll, odds are they're going to break armor. I don't see a huge percentage chance of failure enough to make such debate worthwhile.

I think i'm in a better position to know whether i'd complain than you are! You don't get it, it's not about balance at all. Even if piling on sucked, i'd still complain if you got to choose after rolling the dice. It's a timing thing, it doesn't make any sense at all!

[DoubleSkulls]

Besides, if any big guy or S4 player uses Piling On before or after the die roll, odds are they're going to break armor. I don't see a huge percentage chance of failure enough to make such debate worthwhile.

The difference is how much they are on their feet - not how much they break armour. Against Av8 a S4 player with piling on only goes prone when he rolls a 5-8. That's 55% of the time. So 45% of the time they don't go prone. You also know you are getting at least a stunned result by going prone (there's a 1/6 chance of not breaking Av8 with a S4 player).

[ZanzerTem]

Sorry, but even if it was ruled "declare before rolling AV", it would not change anything.

There isnt a big issue with Str 3 and 4 people getting the skill. It is the Str 5 people with Mighty Blow that is the issue.

I play in a league with a Khemri and an Undead team. Thats 6 mummies with Pile on and Mighty Blow. Thats +5 to the armor and +1 to injury. The Khemri team averages 9-12 casualties a game, and the Undead manages 3-5 (doesn't use pile on as liberally as the Khemri).

I've said many times before. Do ONE of these 2 following things:

Pile On gives 1/2 Str to the armor roll, round down.

Keep it as it is and make it a trait.

These are the only ways I can see Pile On being fixed, and fixed permanently.

[Redfang]

Pile On gives 1/2 Str to the armor roll, round down.

Now that would be a good way to make a completely useless skill for most players:
Dwarf Longbeard/Chaos Beastman and any other Str3 player with Piling on??? Laying down and still no more effect than Might Blow that can also be used on injury rolls?
Claw (although harder to get) would also have more influence then than piling on, without placing you on the ground.

Who would these ever take that skill?

R

[DoubleSkulls]

I play in a league with a Khemri and an Undead team. Thats 6 mummies with Pile on and Mighty Blow. Thats +5 to the armor and +1 to injury. The Khemri team averages 9-12 casualties a game, and the Undead manages 3-5 (doesn't use pile on as liberally as the Khemri).

Fair enough. In a league environment two piling on mummies is pretty nasty, but not unbeatable. 4 on the other hand is almost impossible to cope with.

I'd say change Piling On and the Khemri list, its the combination of the two that's the problem not just PO.

[ZanzerTem]

Who would these ever take that skill?

R

Str 3 players now days only take it as a "token" skill anyway. (Hmm, I have Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm....what now.......Pile On, I guess )

If a Str 4 person takes it, thats +2 to armor roll and +1 to injury (if they have Mighty Blow).

Im a firm believer that players should PROGRESS in power, not go from weak to strong with only 6 SPP's.

Player should get Mighty Blow (+1 to armor roll, +0 to injury, or the other way around)

then get Mighty Blow and Pile on, toned down version (+2 armor, +1 injury, or other way around).

This shows progression and experience.

[sean newboy]

Dont forget that Norse blitzers love Pile on, after all they already have Jump up and dont need doubles.

[Skummy]

I don't think it should be made a trait, simply because there are only 4 Strength skills in the game. Limiting them further would be bad, in my opinion.

Halving the bounus rounded up is the way to go in my opinion. This would keep it in line with Claw for 3 AG players and make Big Guys do more damage than a regular lineman or Black Orc.

[ZanzerTem]

Dont forget that Norse blitzers love Pile on, after all they already have Jump up and dont need doubles.

Norse Blitzers and Witch Elves are an exception. The Jump Up trait makes Pile On even that much more tasty.