Important note on playtesting Ogre rosters:

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:54 am

Word from Jervis at the NAF seminar over the weekend:

(1) Fanatic are not particularly interested in feedback that says "we ignored the experimental roster because we know it's broken" They want some feedback that proves it's broken

(2) Jervis was very much against multiple positions on the Ogre roster, for aesthetic reasons. The models are already sculpted and in production and he feels there's nothing to differentiate Blitzers from Blockers. The "helmets, no helmets" point was raised, but he remained unconvinced.

(3) Jervis really likes the idea that people are "scared of the ogre roster".

I think it will be important that, while playtesting the TBB ogre roster we test the BB Mag 6 roster alongside as a control. We want to get both rosters up to 10-12 matches, alongside other teams and show where they place relative to one another. It would also be useful for coaches who are playing in tabletop leagues to comment on how they differentiated the models and what effect that had on gameplay.

Mestari · Post by **Mestari** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 9:52 am

Marcus wrote: (1) Fanatic are not particularly interested in ...
(2) Jervis was very much against multiple positions ...
(3) Jervis really likes the idea that people are "scared of the ogre roster".

It seems that JJ wants to go through the hard way before admitting a mistake (cf. 4th edition)

We have to rest our hope on the BBRC to challenge JJ on this matter. And provide the BBRC with as much evidence as possible to support this case.

Point 1 is sensible, points 2 and 3 simply show that JJ has the bad-leader syndrome of sticking to his original decision no matter how bad it may be.
But in order not to qualify as a reply covered by point 1, let me emphasise:

Multiple positions make the team more interesting. The lineup is rather boring if you have only two player types. Two ogre positions will make the team a lot more team-like.
Miniatures are not a problem. They can be posed differently, given different heads etc. It's sufficient to say that a team must clearly differentiate between ogre blockers and blitzers in a freely selectable way. More freedom to the person assembling the Ogres.

Many of the people around here who're scared of the Ogre roster are long-term players who are not afraid of the team because it could trash their team, but because it seriously damages league balance. In addition to being uninteresting as per the above paragraph, the team is also hideously powerful, probably causing every sensible league commissioner to ban it. Which in turn results in lower sales.

Other people have provided rather solid evidence about the fact that it's overpowered. Hopefully they are repeated by those persons to this thread in order to gather up the condemning evidence against the mag team.

Other points include that it makes the goblin team obsolete. It's basicly the same team, only that it can take a lot more ogres than the normal team.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 10:10 am

Well as a first step I'd suggest knocking the maximum number of goblins down to 6 with rerolls at 80k. That allows a max of 1 TRR and 8FF for a starting team.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 7:40 pm

For the MBBL, I've agreed to run an Ogre team outside of the league. It will play against league teams but the outcome of the games will only effect my Ogre team's progress not my opponent's.

This way I get the following:
1) Playtest data for JJ for the original roster
2) The team won't destroy anyone in my league as I believe it will
3) The coaches in my league who have threatened to quit if I add the BB Mag #6 Ogre team won't
4) I'll have a TBB Ogre team and a BB Mag #6 Ogre team with the same number of games in the same league to compare records and stats from one to the other.

Galak

sean newboy · Post by **sean newboy** » Mon Mar 03, 2003 8:29 pm

Sensible precaution.

Dangerous Dave · Post by **Dangerous Dave** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 8:50 am

Great idea Galak.

RABBL is going to play test in the same way. First up my Ogre team v Lou's rookie Orcs. I don't expect to win since I've got the minimum number of Ogres.... but keep the injuries away and development should be reasonbably swift.

Dave

Cervidal · Post by **Cervidal** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 12:33 pm

It may seem a small point, but, really, the Ogre team in the long run won't be considered a replacement for the Goblin team because the Goblin team is likely to be allowed secret weapons, or at least more of them than the Ogre team.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 9:51 pm

This news just in ... JJ this morning agreed that the team in BB Mag #6 needed revision. He is currently working with the BBRC to come up with a new experimental roster ... (still with only Ogres and Goblins though). As soon as I know how it shakes out I'll let you know what I'm testing as I'm all ready to go with any roster they pick.

The MBBL will still test the TBB roster, because bottom line, Milo approved it and I think it better than anything I've seen so far.

So hold onto your hats ... when the dust settles I'll give an update.

Galak

lightingbug · Post by **lightingbug** » Tue Mar 04, 2003 11:15 pm

Is the Ogre Roster avail for us to see. I've looked for it but haven't found it yet. I want to check it out and try to play a few games maybe.

Thx lightingbug

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 6:31 pm

Okay here's the official current word from Jervis handed down to me today:

JJ can see the merit in the TBB roster but he wants that version and another tested to give him full and proper data to work with. The data from the two will be used to probably meet in the middle somewhere later to revise the team again per JJ's note to me.

So the MBBL will test both Ogre rosters for him, and he welcomes test data from any other league willing to run one or preferably both rosters in their leagues to help with the data gathering:

The first will be the TBB roster as posted on TBB. If there is any question what that roster is ... check here:
http://www.midgardbb.com/GWTeams/RevisedGWRosters.html
Along with this roster is it strongly recommended that you use the original Really Stupid rule from BB Comp #1 that Bonehead players cannot cause Really Stupid players to become Bonehead. If you use the LRB version, please indicate that if you report results.

The second will be a revised BB Mag #6 roster.

The Revised Roster JJ wants tested to give him the 2nd set of data is:

0-11 Ogres (no Big Guy on them)
0-5 Goblins
70k rerolls
The team must double its TR when figuring out handicaps at the start of each game.

So I just started my first test game against a TR 113 Human team which meant my TR 100 (200) Ogres gave up 4 handicap rolls. So we'll see what happens with this team.

Just wanted to update everyone as its been a lot of shake up. Basically the discussion at the Blood Bowl did sway JJ to reconsider, so we carry on from there.

Galak

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:57 pm

ECBBL will be starting with these teams next week.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:03 pm

gonna have to change the roster in fumbbl now using the original 8-8 split

of course the handicap thing will be a problem ;]

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:28 pm

Grumbledook wrote:gonna have to change the roster in fumbbl now using the original 8-8 split

of course the handicap thing will be a problem ;]

You guys have to get that fixed.

Oh and Marcus ... I'm confirming with JJ that the double TR only applies to handicap rolls ... NOT the gold roll. If it applies to the gold roll, the team is pretty much unplayable as it won't get any gold after about 6 games.

Galak

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:02 pm

AnthonyTBBF wrote:
The team must double its TR when figuring out handicaps at the start of each game.
Tom, you may want to check this with Jervis, but I believe he meant the TR doubling to count for the winnings table as well.

From JJ:

No, I *do* want it to apply to winnings too (sorry ; )) All of the feedback
I've receive on Ogre teams is that as they progress they get really tough.
It may be that simply doubling their TR is too harsh and adding a number
(say 50) is better, but I'd like to go with doubling first. Remember, the
desire here is not to create a team that can dominate a league in any way.
Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

So Anthony you were right ... double TR for the cash table too ... eh gads ... if you wanted to make sure the team is as attractive as Halflings to play this did the trick. That's the update.

Galak

Trambi · Post by **Trambi** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:39 pm

So how do you want to playtest them ?
Playing against orc, dwarf, elfes, skaven and humie teams.
With each time, two coachs playing ogre and after the other ...

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Important note on playtesting Ogre rosters:

Important note on playtesting Ogre rosters:

Re: Important note on playtesting Ogre rosters: