I know, I know Dwarf having tough time on offense? ( tell me something new). Sorry not everything in life can be a 2+ elf scum. In particular I am having problem against other bashy teams against the cage. In general I am forming a cage and blocking and blitzing down a widezone. It seems to slow against other bash teams. I then try to get in hands of BC and make a run with it. It works some times but leaves me only one real tatic. One tatic=predictable=losing record. If this team can only cage then I need more than 1 way to cage it. What I would like is:
1. Info on a general philosophy
2. General set-up--who picks up ball---who cages--who bashes besides Everyone
3. Any other wrinkles or options available.
Please, all experienced CD coaches with some tatics reply.Any and all advice would be helpful.
new cd coach-having trouble on offence
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bk
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everyman
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Odds and ends as food for thought:
A. Hobgoblins are your obvious ball carriers, seeing how they have the best AG on your team.
B. Bull Centaurs are splendid ball carriers, provided you can actually get them holding the ball. ST4 MA6+3 is great.
C. Even if you're planning the slow and steady cage marching down the pitch, keep your options open by maintaining at least one scoring threat (any player able to move into the endzone with GFIs) at all times. This prevents your opponent from putting all of their forces against your cage. If they don't deal with your scoring threat, then use the threat to score.
D. It's easy to soak up all of your SPPs with your BCs, so try to distribute your TD SPPs if you can.
E. Taking Guard on as many of your dwarves as possible will really help keep the cage moving.
F. A passing play is not out of the question as a potentially surprsing maneuver. If your opponent anticipates your running play and sets up accordingly, then exploit his weakness and go for quick move-pass-move-handoff-move TD.
G. Your hobgoblins are probably not as good as your opponent's positional players. Don't be afraid to Foul your opponent's better players. Even if you get ejected the trade is likely worth it.
A. Hobgoblins are your obvious ball carriers, seeing how they have the best AG on your team.
B. Bull Centaurs are splendid ball carriers, provided you can actually get them holding the ball. ST4 MA6+3 is great.
C. Even if you're planning the slow and steady cage marching down the pitch, keep your options open by maintaining at least one scoring threat (any player able to move into the endzone with GFIs) at all times. This prevents your opponent from putting all of their forces against your cage. If they don't deal with your scoring threat, then use the threat to score.
D. It's easy to soak up all of your SPPs with your BCs, so try to distribute your TD SPPs if you can.
E. Taking Guard on as many of your dwarves as possible will really help keep the cage moving.
F. A passing play is not out of the question as a potentially surprsing maneuver. If your opponent anticipates your running play and sets up accordingly, then exploit his weakness and go for quick move-pass-move-handoff-move TD.
G. Your hobgoblins are probably not as good as your opponent's positional players. Don't be afraid to Foul your opponent's better players. Even if you get ejected the trade is likely worth it.
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Tim
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On offence i usually set up most of the CDs (and maybe a Troll) at the line, one BC a bit behind, picking a target for the blitz, also a dirty player behind the line to look for helpless victims that are worth a boot.
The ball handling faction is always 2 Hobgoblins next to the sideline zones and a BC in the middle of my half.
Make sure you have at least 3 Hobgoblins set up and yes if that means a CD is staying in reserve so it be. You need AG and MV6 to advanche.
Now it depends where the kick goes. Is it deep and out of reach from any opponents, i'll mark it with a Hobgoblin and try to pick it the the Bull Centaur. If the ball is close to the rumble or elfs or gutterrunners are lurking down the pitch i go safety first, mark the ball twice and pick it up with a HG.
From that point on offence depends on what happens on the pitch and your opponent. Against fast teams you will have to roll a cage. However, never go too close to the sideline because it makes defending the cage too easy and steals your options. Try to roll through the middle of the pitch in a zig-zag line.
Against slow teams i like to go to a sideline and see if they commit their defence, then roll around to the other side of the pitch and out run them. If they don't commit, well even better, break down the sideline. remember, if you are faster than the opponent, your 2 BCs (one with the ball) and a lonely HG guard can make a decent half cage next to the other sideline for a turn before you score.
Make sure you follow the principles of cage play:
- your cage may not be in contact with any standing opposing player, so there's only the blitz action and no block possible against the cage players.
- Never use more than 6 (better 5) players in the cage itself. spread out the remaining ones to tie up dangerous opponents, set up blocks and assists to clear a path for the cage, help to reform the cage and serve as an emergency option in case something goes wrong.
- Keep your movement low risk. If you don't manage to move the cage without lots of dice rolls, sometimes it's better to not move at all and spend a round of maiming.
- Make sure that attrition is on your side. Cage plays are much easier if you have a 2+ man advantage on the pitch. If you are 2 man down, start to look for the emergency option, because your cage won't be easy to move at all.
Remember that the slowest player dictates the movement of the cage. However also remember that good cages have an ongoing change of the guards around the ball carrier. So if 2 Hobgoblins and the BC can move 6 squares, maybe the remaining 2 players in the new cage position can be different ones while the 2 players (CDs maybe) that can't follow stay behind and tie up opponents again.
Another way to speed up cage movement is the overturned cage. So if you have 2 CDs in front, an HG in the middle and the BCs in the back you can move the cage 6 squares instead of 4 by putting the CDs to the back of the new cage (MV4), moving the HG in the middle (MV6) and then running the BCs into the front (MV6 + 2 GFI each). Often one round of this quick movement is enough to break through the defence if you manage to position your remaining players correctly.
Skill selection:
The most important skill on the BCs is Break tackle, it should always be your first skill if it's a regular pick. 2+ dodges help to move the cage. BCs are blitzers and runners, no Blockers, so develop them with block / dodge / Standfirm / surehands instead of block /guard / mighty blow / piling on.
The damage will be done by your CDs and possibly a Troll. Don't put much value in the troll as an active player The good thing about a Troll is that he can tie up to 3 opposing players on his own. Every player that is staying at the troll for assists or trying to block him can't move to follow your cage.
HGs are very versatile, so develop them into role players. 1 or 2 dirty players are important to have. A kicker is important too. The rest makes decent blitzers with block tackle and strip ball, decent runners with surehands and dodge (lucky) or block (or both) and decent safeties with block, tackle and pass block.
The ball handling faction is always 2 Hobgoblins next to the sideline zones and a BC in the middle of my half.
Make sure you have at least 3 Hobgoblins set up and yes if that means a CD is staying in reserve so it be. You need AG and MV6 to advanche.
Now it depends where the kick goes. Is it deep and out of reach from any opponents, i'll mark it with a Hobgoblin and try to pick it the the Bull Centaur. If the ball is close to the rumble or elfs or gutterrunners are lurking down the pitch i go safety first, mark the ball twice and pick it up with a HG.
From that point on offence depends on what happens on the pitch and your opponent. Against fast teams you will have to roll a cage. However, never go too close to the sideline because it makes defending the cage too easy and steals your options. Try to roll through the middle of the pitch in a zig-zag line.
Against slow teams i like to go to a sideline and see if they commit their defence, then roll around to the other side of the pitch and out run them. If they don't commit, well even better, break down the sideline. remember, if you are faster than the opponent, your 2 BCs (one with the ball) and a lonely HG guard can make a decent half cage next to the other sideline for a turn before you score.
Make sure you follow the principles of cage play:
- your cage may not be in contact with any standing opposing player, so there's only the blitz action and no block possible against the cage players.
- Never use more than 6 (better 5) players in the cage itself. spread out the remaining ones to tie up dangerous opponents, set up blocks and assists to clear a path for the cage, help to reform the cage and serve as an emergency option in case something goes wrong.
- Keep your movement low risk. If you don't manage to move the cage without lots of dice rolls, sometimes it's better to not move at all and spend a round of maiming.
- Make sure that attrition is on your side. Cage plays are much easier if you have a 2+ man advantage on the pitch. If you are 2 man down, start to look for the emergency option, because your cage won't be easy to move at all.
Remember that the slowest player dictates the movement of the cage. However also remember that good cages have an ongoing change of the guards around the ball carrier. So if 2 Hobgoblins and the BC can move 6 squares, maybe the remaining 2 players in the new cage position can be different ones while the 2 players (CDs maybe) that can't follow stay behind and tie up opponents again.
Another way to speed up cage movement is the overturned cage. So if you have 2 CDs in front, an HG in the middle and the BCs in the back you can move the cage 6 squares instead of 4 by putting the CDs to the back of the new cage (MV4), moving the HG in the middle (MV6) and then running the BCs into the front (MV6 + 2 GFI each). Often one round of this quick movement is enough to break through the defence if you manage to position your remaining players correctly.
Skill selection:
The most important skill on the BCs is Break tackle, it should always be your first skill if it's a regular pick. 2+ dodges help to move the cage. BCs are blitzers and runners, no Blockers, so develop them with block / dodge / Standfirm / surehands instead of block /guard / mighty blow / piling on.
The damage will be done by your CDs and possibly a Troll. Don't put much value in the troll as an active player The good thing about a Troll is that he can tie up to 3 opposing players on his own. Every player that is staying at the troll for assists or trying to block him can't move to follow your cage.
HGs are very versatile, so develop them into role players. 1 or 2 dirty players are important to have. A kicker is important too. The rest makes decent blitzers with block tackle and strip ball, decent runners with surehands and dodge (lucky) or block (or both) and decent safeties with block, tackle and pass block.
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DoubleSkulls
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Some really good stuff there Tim - most of which applies to just about any bashy team.
What I would say is get some Frenzy and then drag your opponents over to the sidelines for some opportunties to push them out of bounds.Tim wrote:never go too close to the sideline because it makes defending the cage too easy and steals your options
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Ian 'Double Skulls' Williams
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Tim
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You are right with other bash teams, esp. Norse, Dwarfs or Chaos. However imo, Chaos Dwarfs are not made for the frenzy routine. It's an awesome skill at the BCs, still standfirm and dodge are even better double picks for them. If i ever get a 5 skill BC with 3 doubles then break tackle, block, dodge, standfirm, frenzy would be nightmare thoughianwilliams wrote:What I would say is get some Frenzy and then drag your opponents over to the sidelines for some opportunties to push them out of bounds.Tim wrote:never go too close to the sideline because it makes defending the cage too easy and steals your options
The CDs are a bit slow for frenzy imo, having to followup they might have problems leaving the sideline again after a blitz. Also they need guard, mb and they new PO and again i would prefer SF over frenzy on doubles. The HGs might be decent frenzy players, but also have so many other useful skill picks at a double ... I'm not saying it's not an option, but esp. for CDs it needs some team development and some lucky double skill rolls. I concentrated on the standard moves in cage play that you can do without any skills.
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Matsu
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I REALLY like frenzy on the BCs, but I'm not quite so enamored of stand firm on the BC. It's great on the dwarves to maintain their position, but the BCs should be flying around the field, not acting as the corner of a cage.
I generally plan to swing towards one sideline (depending on my opponent's setup), so I lineup like so:
CD Offensive Lineup
On the first turn, I expect to do some front line bashing to start to open up a lane on that side of the field, and then to form the cage around the ball carrier on turn 2. Turn 1 should push things a bit, blitz with the 2nd BC, protect the ball with the Hobbos and make sure that you don't open up much of a hole in the LOS for the opponent to break through and blitz your BC.
Obviously, Break Tackle and Sure Hands on the Ball carrier BC are incredibly skills. Block and Dodge are great as well. Get all 4 and you are beyond scary. At the end of 1st turn, it probably looks something like:
CD Offense - Turn 1
On Turn 2, you need to form the cage. Use the Troll and/or the blitzer BC to free up the dwarves as necessary (you'll see I brought the 2nd BC back on a blitz to free up Dwarf#5.
Obviously, this is HIGHLY dependant on your opponent's style and positioning, but this works well as a basic strategy. Use your blitzing BC to open holes to move the cage. Don't be afraid to move the cage back and forth across the field if your opponent stalls you on one side - you still have some dwarves on the other side who can be the front of the new cage and you can use hobbos or the other BC at the back corners if really necessary (temporarily, at least). Also, notice that the hobbos are protected by CDs after turn 2 and are well set up to break into the opposing backfield and become scoring threats.
CD Turn 2
What I like so much about the CD team in general is that you have the reliability of the dwarves, but the BCs give you a great deal more offensive and defensive flexibility. Use it!
I generally plan to swing towards one sideline (depending on my opponent's setup), so I lineup like so:
CD Offensive Lineup
On the first turn, I expect to do some front line bashing to start to open up a lane on that side of the field, and then to form the cage around the ball carrier on turn 2. Turn 1 should push things a bit, blitz with the 2nd BC, protect the ball with the Hobbos and make sure that you don't open up much of a hole in the LOS for the opponent to break through and blitz your BC.
Obviously, Break Tackle and Sure Hands on the Ball carrier BC are incredibly skills. Block and Dodge are great as well. Get all 4 and you are beyond scary. At the end of 1st turn, it probably looks something like:
CD Offense - Turn 1
On Turn 2, you need to form the cage. Use the Troll and/or the blitzer BC to free up the dwarves as necessary (you'll see I brought the 2nd BC back on a blitz to free up Dwarf#5.
Obviously, this is HIGHLY dependant on your opponent's style and positioning, but this works well as a basic strategy. Use your blitzing BC to open holes to move the cage. Don't be afraid to move the cage back and forth across the field if your opponent stalls you on one side - you still have some dwarves on the other side who can be the front of the new cage and you can use hobbos or the other BC at the back corners if really necessary (temporarily, at least). Also, notice that the hobbos are protected by CDs after turn 2 and are well set up to break into the opposing backfield and become scoring threats.
CD Turn 2
What I like so much about the CD team in general is that you have the reliability of the dwarves, but the BCs give you a great deal more offensive and defensive flexibility. Use it!
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bk
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Thanks for input
Thanks for all of your input. There were several things I can use.
Matsu--Thanks for the set-up. My only question is what about a fast team with kick. Couldn't they kick right sweep 3 guys down right and tie up BC and a gobbo?
Tim-thanks for the help with overall play, but I have a few questions in regard to your set-up that allow you to 1. cover the ball, 2. set up cage 3. allows cage to change direction. I know this probably sounds basic but I'm new. Currently my set up allows me to pick ball up and take off towards my "attack" side. Also I was thinking of taking block as first reg skill for BC's but after thinking of it, Break tackle seems the best way to go. Helps off. and def. and I think will help get 2nd skill faster. Thanks! One more question for you: Why keep cage free of defenders? I thought I wanted to engage and kick butt. The fast teams always seem to dodge 1 space away from cage and slowing it down. Sorry if these questions seem basic.
Ian- I like the idea of maybe frenzy on one of the BC's
Like Skummy said: " I already feel smarter."
Thanks
Matsu--Thanks for the set-up. My only question is what about a fast team with kick. Couldn't they kick right sweep 3 guys down right and tie up BC and a gobbo?
Tim-thanks for the help with overall play, but I have a few questions in regard to your set-up that allow you to 1. cover the ball, 2. set up cage 3. allows cage to change direction. I know this probably sounds basic but I'm new. Currently my set up allows me to pick ball up and take off towards my "attack" side. Also I was thinking of taking block as first reg skill for BC's but after thinking of it, Break tackle seems the best way to go. Helps off. and def. and I think will help get 2nd skill faster. Thanks! One more question for you: Why keep cage free of defenders? I thought I wanted to engage and kick butt. The fast teams always seem to dodge 1 space away from cage and slowing it down. Sorry if these questions seem basic.
Ian- I like the idea of maybe frenzy on one of the BC's
Like Skummy said: " I already feel smarter."
Thanks
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Skummy
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Re: Thanks for input
I can handle that one. Real simply, the purpose of the cage is to ensure the safety of the ballcarrier, right?bk wrote:Why keep cage free of defenders? I thought I wanted to engage and kick butt. The fast teams always seem to dodge 1 space away from cage and slowing it down. Sorry if these questions seem basic.
If you leave an enemy standing and engaged with the cage at the end of your turn, that player can block part of your cage out of the way, opening it up for a blitz on the ballcarrier.
If slowing the cage down by dodging one space away is the popular in your league, make sure you always send a player downfield in scoring range. If your opponent really wants to play safe, a bull centaur can generally force two defenders downfield to defend him. This should open up some holes for the cage to break through.
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Matsu
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This is more effective against you when you don't have break tackle yet. If you do, those 3 guys become pretty irrelevant. Still, if they seem likely to blitz (fast teams), then hold the LOS for an extra turn while you're picking up the ball. Also, you can start with your ball carrier swung right - that achieves 2 things:bk wrote:Thanks for all of your input. There were several things I can use.
Matsu--Thanks for the set-up. My only question is what about a fast team with kick. Couldn't they kick right sweep 3 guys down right and tie up BC and a gobbo?
1. convinces them to kick to the left where you have more guys and a harder line to break.
2. If they kick right, your BC will have more movement left over.
Also, remember that your 2nd BC's job is to blitz in order to open up holes. Sometimes, that hole is the one that will get your ball carrier over to the cage you're setting up.
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