Agility vs. bash, kick off and time

[Jeremiah Kool]

In the Dwarves vs. Wood Elves thread viewtopic.php?t=18938 it was again pointed out that it´s better to kick with a bashy team vs. an agility team (see Mootaz´post).

I now agree with it but I wonder what does an agility coach do when he knows the bashy coach is going for that tactic? Don´t score in two turns? I´ve seen many Skaven and Wood Elf teams against my Dwarves that scored in two turns and then pressured me to score the equalizer. Sometimes it worked for them and sometimes not.

So what´s a Skaven/Wood Elf team to do in this situation?

[Andrew from Cheadle]

My tactic (with woodies) which has had mixed results so far, but limited number of games, is to score in two turns if receiving - this is nearly always possible with a full 11 woodies (unless you get some really rubish roles)

You then have 6 turns to turnover the ball...depending on what happens on the kick off depends on how quickly I strike. Patience is key as going on a suicide leap into a gage when you have no chance of getting the ball if it spills out is a bit daft.

You then have 8 turns to try to force a turnover in the 2nd half.

If you can manage to score twice against a bashy team you are unlikely yo loose...even if you only manage a draw.

[fen]

Personally, I stall for as long as possible and try to score on turn 6/7.

Of course, sometimes you start taking so much damage from stalling that you're forced to score. But the aim is to leave the bashy team about 2 turns to try and score in, so hopefully they don't. Then they face the second half 1-0 down and have to play catch up.

It's rather situational really, but every turn you can hold off from scoring is a turn less that they have to use. Plus it's better for KOs recovering in time for the second half if you have a roll at turn (say) 5 and then at turn 8, rather than turn 2 and turn 8.

Of course, there's no real right answer, it depends on the kind of league you're in and the bashing players you play against.

[falconeyed]

My tactic (with woodies) which has had mixed results so far, but limited number of games, is to score in two turns if receiving - this is nearly always possible with a full 11 woodies (unless you get some really rubish roles)

You then have 6 turns to turnover the ball...depending on what happens on the kick off depends on how quickly I strike. Patience is key as going on a suicide leap into a gage when you have no chance of getting the ball if it spills out is a bit daft.

You then have 8 turns to try to force a turnover in the 2nd half.

If you can manage to score twice against a bashy team you are unlikely yo loose...even if you only manage a draw.

This is playing directly into the dwarf coach's hands. He wants you to score in two. The dwarf game is attrition ... you need to delay score as long as possible. The delay of the first TD plus the Kick skill seems to give you the best chance. Also, a wizard's fireball is useful as well for when the inevitable cage forms.

[DoubleSkulls]

So what´s a Skaven/Wood Elf team to do in this situation?

Depends...

If you think you can survive the bash (or even better turn them over). Then score in 2 and work on the principle "I've got 14 turns to turn him over".

The fatal error a lot of agile teams make is engaging the bash team to try and turn them over. If you engage too early - and unsuccessfully - you normally end up with a badly mashed team and losing 2-1. If you are patient and slowly create an opening you can often get the win yourself and avoid the casualties.

Remember that generally the bash team needs 5+ players to protect the ball from you. That means your 11 (or whatever remnant are left) can concentrate on the others. You are actually quite happy to see the bash team score quickly - just so long as you don't let him stall - so gang up on a couple of players and slowly work your way into a position of strength.

[Fronko]

My approach would be to aim for the 2-turn TD. Still, if I can safely stall a turn or two, without putting myself in the danger of loosing the ball OR getting people injured, i try and hold out as long as possible. The trick is to "waste" as much time as possible for the opponent, without losing men or the ball. If my opponent only has 5 (or better yet, 4) turns for his TD, I can either stall him even more, so he doesnt get the equalizer or if he pushes his TD, there might be an opportunity for a quick blitz at the ball carrier, possibly delaying his TD even more or allow meto go in the lead 2:0. If that happens, the game is almost won. If I can at least hold the 1:0, that is still good, as that gives me the opportunity for 8 Turns in the second half to steal the ball, and even if that doesnt work, I at least have achieved a draw.

If you are forced to make that initial 2-turn TD, dont worry though. Keep your concentration, fall back 0ne square each turn, avoid damage as much as possible and wait for that opportunity to steal the ball. It will come eventually nad if it doesnt come... well, you obviously faced a very experienced coach.

[Cloggy]

I stall.

Especially at higher TR most bashy teams have little problems with securing the ball into a cage and scoring with a slow drive. The trouble starts when they have only few turns to score in. Getting those Guard Black orcs or longbeards into such a position that the ballcarrier can run from cage-cover to the score is hard because of their low MA.

IMO this means that the chances of getting a turnover actually increase when the bashy team lacks the time they need for a cageing drive, since they might have to pass the ball around to advance fast enough. Even if they have 3 turns to score, they may struggle to get mutlplie players in scoring position AND maintain adequate protection for the ball.

[Marcellius]

pick up the ball, pass to a runner and score in 1 turn.

[vanGorn]

One approach can be having a full roster of 16 players. So you can replace the losses and foul back. The kick-first-tactic of the bashers works best against undermanned teams.

[Aksho]

If you go with Dwarf and playing againt an already cracked Elfteam you can also decide to start. Then go for the slow TD in the first half, best to makt the TD in Turn 8 and Bash-out the little elfes, the maybe 8 elfes left will go for the quick 1:1 in half 2 and you can go for the slow 2:1 again and do a lot of Cash on the way

mfg Bernd

[falconeyed]

Had a league match against dwarves with my pro elves yesterday. I received, scored in three, could've stalled another turn. He scored in turn 8 (meaning I should have stalled that turn), had two great shots at turning him over in the 2nd half ... one ended with double ones on a dodge on my blitz and the second popped the ball out, but he managed to get it back and GFI twice (failing the first one but then rerolling) on turn 8. His injury rolls were horrific, although he BH'ed one of my ST 4 blitzers early on ... I think I was pretty close to pulling it off.

Kick skill was huge ... helped keep the ball out of the cage for a good amount of time and by the time the ball got to the cage it was a partially formed cage at best.