Big Guy advice

falconeyed · Post by **falconeyed** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:54 pm

kano wrote:Actually, I have an orc team and I blitz with my troll quite a bit, now with the loner rule you at least have a chance at a reroll.......Plus for his first skill I gave him Juggernaut so at least that is like having block on offense.......

This is good ... well, the decision to give the BG juggernaut is good. I'd be wary about blitzing with the BG in all but the most conservative of instances.

el sid · Post by **el sid** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:27 pm

In my opinion Vault came up with two very distinct types of Big Guys:

- You have the slow but rock-hard big guys like Beasts, Trolls, Ogres, Kroxigor and Treemen. These are built to hold their own in the thick of a bloody scrum. They all carry AV9 and ST5 or higher, plus either Thick Skull or Regenerate to make them even harder to get off the pitch.

They are NOT built to Blitz. They should be equipped with skills like Guard, Stand Firm, Multiple Block, Grab... This makes their high ST even more useful when entering the brawl. Double rolls should go to Block so they can take some more punishment when put on the line.

These players are a good investement for a beginning team, as these are the hardest players in the game and they're not that expensive (except for the Ogre and Krox, which are more versatile).

- The other type are the quicker but more fragile big guys like the Rat Ogre, the Minotaur and the Snow Troll. These come with a MA of 5 or higher, low AV of 8 and Frenzy. Coaches should play these exactly the opposite way of the former type of big guy. At all costs they should avoid getting into a scrum. When crowded, they're as easy to break as an ordinary Lineman, without getting the protection of Wrestle, Block or Dodge.

I use my Rat Ogre to roam the field, looking for easy 3-die Blitzes. Yes, I do think it is worthwhile to risk the Blitz action, as the Rat Ogre is by far the best option for Skaven teams to take out some opponents. Frenzy is great on taking down even Blodgers when you roll 2 x 3 dice. First skills should be Juggernaut and Stand Firm. Piling On would be nice to maximize on damage causing capacity, but it leaves your player very vulnerable. Also the chance of attacking a player during your next turn os low. Later on Break Tackle could be nice, but I don't like to Dodge with my expensive Big Guy without the certainty of the Re-Roll. For a double roll I would (haven't had the opportunity yet) take Tackle. It greatly combines with Frenzy and makes it a bit more difficult for those Elfs to Dodge your BG. Juggernaut takes the risk out of blitzing anyway and as you avoid scrums, the lack of Block should not be that painful.

Teams being able to take this type of Big Guy should NOT start with them. Mainly because they are too expensive to cram into a starting team budget (more expensive then the other type of BG). Also, unlike the other type these BG's don't give support to your team, but need support! So you should develop your Skaven / Elf / Norse / Chaos Dwarf team a bit before taking the big oaf.

I play an Orc team featuring a Troll and a Skaven team which recently bought its Rat Ogre. I think above strategy works very well for both.

el sid

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:42 pm

El Sid. Where were you with this great advice last week when I started my new Norse team?

It makes a lot of sense for my Snow Troll.

I got all my positionals (including the Snow Troll) and went with 1 re-roll. I figured on taking leader on a thrower to compensate and now will almost definately have to as a Runner took an AV loss. (Which means buying a new runner before TRR No. 2)

Maybe I'll get lucky and he'll skill after this match with block.

cheers.

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:33 pm

El Sid has pretty much written out the long version of what I ment when I divided up the Big Guys. That's pretty much how I use the two different types.

Except I think the Skaven team can almost consider taking the Rat Ogre when starting up. The new Norse, Chaos and CDs certainly don't want their big guy early on.

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:23 pm

fen wrote:El Sid has pretty much written out the long version of what I ment when I divided up the Big Guys. That's pretty much how I use the two different types.

Except I think the Skaven team can almost consider taking the Rat Ogre when starting up. The new Norse, Chaos and CDs certainly don't want their big guy early on.

Fen, yeah I read your stuff and thought the idea of use was brilliant, but I'm talking about the advice not to start with one as norse..

You didn't tell me not to do that.... You just said it came down to whether I wanted to field one or not... Which while I'm not a big fan of Large Monsters in general, I wanted to test the new Norse Roster (me thinks me likes

1) including the Snow Troll as well. I didn't really know one way or the other which would be better with or without to start. As he was ST 5 and AV 8 to go on the line (yes is is weak, but better than av 7 lineman alternative.)..

I'm hoping the claw will at least gain me some extra stuns to get up men on pitch per turn to couple the massive amounts of shove offs I clear out of the flanks. (4 orcs this 1st half so far fed to the crowd.)

1. I like stock dauntless on a team, especially if it comes with block. I could care less he is the "catcher".
2. I like ST 4 Frenzy stock as well. I don't care they don't jump up.
3. I like the move 7 figs as well. It will be hard to get them receiver skills probably as I want them as hard hitting strong safeties.. Still dodge and catch and sure feet will probably end up my standards on them like usual.
(though the thought of a sneaky git dirty player runner makes me stop and think.)

oops, I should get back to work.

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:30 pm

Yeah you're right I didn't say that for starting teams, also I must admit I have a slightly more open view about starting with Big Guys in leagues cause we're a 1.1mil league, which does bais things slightly by opening up that leeway for a big guy out of the gate. Still there's no way I'd open with a Mino on CDs or Chaos.

As for the rest of the Norse team. I agree with everything you've said. Norse may well be the team I'd take to tournaments in a post LRB5 enviroment (if I get round to finishing the team and attending.) Especially with my bent towards chain push crowd surfing.

arv9673 · Post by **arv9673** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:03 am

Thanks for all the good advice. I think I'm going to stick with opting out of the BG option until I've got my teams well and set. My favorite team is still Human and their pretty versatile no matter what you do to them. But the roving Rat Ogre does sound interesting for my Skaven teams....

Rab · Post by **Rab** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:18 am

I can see the value of the points made above, but I still like to include a big guy in my teams, and only partly for fluff reasons.

Particularly with the price reduction for chaos minos I'd always include one. Frenzy is a great skill for opening a corridor down a wide zone!

Similarly, I do take a rat ogre for starting/tournament skaven team for that extra bit of strength and (once they have Break Tackle) for cage breaking with an otherwise low ST team.

Admittedly, 1 in 6 you'll lose the Blitz for that turn and without Block they can be a bit of a liability.... but pick your battles. You probably wouldn't rely on a one dice block No Block against Block except in dire straits with a little guy - why would you equally careless with a Big Guy?

Big guys can be great - they tie up your opposition's atacking/fouling actions, can break cages, and in leagues even without doubles Block they quickly become fairly vicious. You just need to take the same tactical care over their use as you would with any other positional.

Just my take on things