(Serious) Vampires - tactics and skill progression

[Moogul]

Ok, I've just started playing Bloodbowl again after a several year absence (6-7 years probably), since we've just started a league at my universities games society.

A lot of players have decided to play 2 teams to increase the variety, and to go for something different, I decided to play Dark Elves as my first team, and as you've guessed by the topic title, Vampires as the second team. Whilst my Dark Elves are my primary team and the team I'm going to be most competitive with, I still want to play my vampire team fairly seriously, and not just as a 'joke' team.

First off, I'd like to congratulate the game designers on the current vampire list - I think it's a lot more balanced than people give it credit for, and I think the balance of focus between thralls and vamps is pretty well managed.

I decided to go for a 2 vampire, 10 thrall list, with 5 re-rolls. Having that many thralls seemed a bit weak, but I figured that with only 2 vamps, and 5 re-rolls for bloodlust, that the vamps would be fairly reliable and I'd get good use out of them.

I played my first game yesterday against another players Dark Elves (I got 50k inducements, which went on a bloodweiser babe, not that it did anything...), and eventually lost 3-2. I was close to an equalizer near the end, my penultimate turn had one vamp in the midfield carrying the ball (with 2 thrall escorts) and I was setting up 2 pass receivers - one thrall, and the other vamp. The Thrall ran into position, but the Vamp had a change of mind and decided he wanted a snack. Failed a dodge roll and fell over causing a turnover, and obviously the thrall got blitzed the next turn preventing the score.

Anyway, some questions - what do you think of my lineup? Is it wort going for that many rerolls, or should I have gone for another Vamp? I think mine was the right way to go, it seems to me that 3 vamps and only 4 rerolls would be a bit risky.

Next, for those who have played vamps before, where do you tend to place your vamps? With only two, I generally decided that when kicking, I'd place them in the widezones for trying to blitz their carrier and grab the ball, and when receiving I put one in a wide zone and one back to pickup, meaning I could pickup and pass to the other vamp for a completion, and then run the other vamp down to attempt a score - a str 4 agi 4 ball carrier is pretty annoying for the opponents, if I can get thralls positioned well to disrupt him getting assists for the inevitable blitz.

Lastly, and most importantly, skill progression. Unfortunately I only got one skillup from the game (on a vamp, who got block), but I have several near skillups, including the other vamp. I figure for Vamps, Block and Dodge seem like no brainers. Str 4 blodgers are pretty hard to knock down without a concerted effort, and with agility 4 and dodge, plus hypnotic gaze, the vamps are going to be sneaking past lines all over the place. Once I've got block and dodge on a vampire, what should I get next? I'm currently thinking Leap would be a very good choice, making the vampires almost impossible to pin down. Mighty blow for a vamp or two seems nice for causing a lot of damage, but are there anymore interesting skill options I should go for? For doubles, leader seems a good one, but is it worth trying to make a 'thrower' vamp? Also, if I somehow manage to roll a 10, should I take MA or AV? a movement 7 vampire seems like it could cause my opponents a lot of problems, but will also most likely get fouled into the stone age.

What about thralls? Block seems like the obvious answer, with probably kick on one, and dirty player on another. Doubles will lead to guard, or dodge on some, but what else should I give to my 'human resources'?

Edit: Just realised I forgot to mention pro in regards to the vamps - my current plan is to get it after block and dodge, either before or after leap - it'll probably be different for different vamps.

[Mad Jackal]

Bah I'll have to post later when I get my thougths organized and edited .. this post was way to long and rambling before I erased it.

while we wait:
I strongly suggest taking Pro first on vampires as the best turns you will have are when the blood lusts are taken care of and the team re-roll is still in the bank. Plus, it is a help in blocking, moving (dodge and gfi), ball handling (pass and catch) and hypnogazing. (Which I do a ton of.)


more later.

[Mad Jackal]

I'll try the specif questions 1st maybe this will be cleaner.

I decided to go for a 2 vampire, 10 thrall list, with 5 re-rolls. Having that many thralls seemed a bit weak, but I figured that with only 2 vamps, and 5 re-rolls for bloodlust, that the vamps would be fairly reliable and I'd get good use out of them.

Anyway, some questions - what do you think of my lineup? Is it wort going for that many rerolls, or should I have gone for another Vamp? I think mine was the right way to go, it seems to me that 3 vamps and only 4 rerolls would be a bit risky..

I started with no vampires and 6 re-rolls with the express intent of skilling up thralls to have support staff before buying vampires. I was very reasonably happy with the results and the team. I have considered a 1 or 2 vampire start as well if I had to do it over. But I would NOT start wtih 3 vampires and only 4 re-rolls. I played a tournament TV 120 team with 2 vampires and sucked the 4 re-rolls dry literally by turn 5 each half. (Even with Pro on the vamps.) In fact I would never play more than 3 vamps on the pitch at once anyway, so starting with all 3 seems like overkill.

Next, for those who have played vamps before, where do you tend to place your vamps? With only two, I generally decided that when kicking, I'd place them in the widezones for trying to blitz their carrier and grab the ball, and when receiving I put one in a wide zone and one back to pickup, meaning I could pickup and pass to the other vamp for a completion, and then run the other vamp down to attempt a score - a str 4 agi 4 ball carrier is pretty annoying for the opponents, if I can get thralls positioned well to disrupt him getting assists for the inevitable blitz.

I find vampires as excellent decoys and support players. I do not build too many plays the "count on" the vampires to do anything other than move and maybe gaze, until they have Pro. And even then, reliance on them can quickly kill your team.
With the hypnotic gaze requiring them to active to regain tackle zones, vampires are very effective "safeties" who can go back and gaze potential receivers when facing passing teams, and or vamps can move in and reduce a cage to thumb sucking twits for a player to waltz in and blitz the carrier from the middle. Thralls are the utimate road block (too bad they don't regen) and should be used to screen and wall your opponent in. But they should also be given skills like tackle and strip ball and wrestle to follow the vampires into the breach.

Lastly, and most importantly, skill progression. Unfortunately I only got one skillup from the game (on a vamp, who got block), but I have several near skillups, including the other vamp. I figure for Vamps, Block and Dodge seem like no brainers. Str 4 blodgers are pretty hard to knock down without a concerted effort, and with agility 4 and dodge, plus hypnotic gaze, the vamps are going to be sneaking past lines all over the place. Once I've got block and dodge on a vampire, what should I get next? I'm currently thinking Leap would be a very good choice, making the vampires almost impossible to pin down. Mighty blow for a vamp or two seems nice for causing a lot of damage, but are there anymore interesting skill options I should go for? For doubles, leader seems a good one, but is it worth trying to make a 'thrower' vamp? Also, if I somehow manage to roll a 10, should I take MA or AV? a movement 7 vampire seems like it could cause my opponents a lot of problems, but will also most likely get fouled into the stone age.

A passing dedicated vampire isn't a bad idea. Pro + Pass + Strong arm would be effective at up to long range. Developing one for an offensive platoon would be nice. I would not bother with Leader on a vampire. Pro, Block, Dodge, Mighty Blow, and other skills come first I think. I mean , heck you already have 5 team re-rolls. I'm also prone to getting Nerves of Steel on a Vampire to develop a more threatening/effective catcher. Pro+Catch+NOS, plus dodge (or pass block) eventually. in the LRB 5.0 I prefer +1 AV to +1 move on lots of players. It depends on the vampire in question if he already has skills, but realistically I think +1 AV is the answer 90+% of the time for me. Protect the investment.

What about thralls? Block seems like the obvious answer, with probably kick on one, and dirty player on another. Doubles will lead to guard, or dodge on some, but what else should I give to my 'human resources'?

Don't discount Fend. It bothers opposing cages, stops frenzy and prevents most Piling Ons. Plus it keeps thralls freed from tackle zones which increases thier mobility and thus thier effectiveness.
Wrestle is also an interesting skill as it takes opposing players (event those with block) down where your dirty player thrall can deliver a brutal kick. Anything that reduces the attrition rate on your thralls is a good thing. (Pro on your vamps included) Fouling is a mixed bag, as your thralls are cheap and not so good, so you can trade for bigger nastier opposing players, but then if you are sent off, there goes another potential neck. Too much thrall reduction from the pitch can eventually cause your vampires to destroy your team and chance at winning.
Sure hands + kick off return on thralls also allows you some room to manuver on offense. I also think dauntless on a thrall or two is a good choice. Lots of players are st3+ and Stars are very common. Doubles is guard, leader (maybe), diving tackle, dodge, I like sure feet and catch too. Maybe one passing thrall as well.

Edit: Just realised I forgot to mention pro in regards to the vamps - my current plan is to get it after block and dodge, either before or after leap - it'll probably be different for different vamps.

Galak will tell you that Pro is the best choice for the 1st skill. I still rank +1 AG above it (he doesn't) but other than that I agree. see above references to keeping thralls alive and making vampires more reliable.

In general, a good rule of thumb with vampires is to always plan ahead in case of failure (especially with blood lust.) Have a plan B, and stick to it for each blown blood lust. Basically know where you want him to go and wat you want him to do if he passes, and where he will go and what he will do (has to be a move action but could also pick up the ball and or hypnogaze.) if he fails.

I plan on building the team to two 3-vamp platoons. 1 defense and 1 offense, if I can keep ahead of spiralling expenses. the thralls will be a mix of offensive, defensive and fodder players. Defensive including tackle, fend, kick, wrestle, dirty player, dauntless and strip ball. Offensive including dauntless, wrestle, sure hands, kick off reurn, catch, dodge, pass. etc.

Defense the thralls slow the cage until enough gazes and blocks can be applied to tear a hole in it and sack teh ball carrier.

Offense has a thrall get the ball with support and thralls push foreward with vampire support. Keeping one vamprie in reserve to blitz up or move up to gaze a thrall free to get into the end zone.

[GalakStarscraper]

I've seen a lot of folks post on the forget Pro ... go with Block or Dodge on the Vampires.

I still think Pro is the right decision. Now I didn't start my team with 5 re-rolls. But I approve of the decision.

I differ from MJ in that I use my doubles on Thralls to build my passers and ball pickup players.

My Vampires normally stick with Pro, Block, Mighty Blow, Piling On.

I like having Pro first because I can use it on Blood Lust and Hypnotic Gaze ... both which are frequently not something I ever want to use a re-roll on.

The trick to winning with Vampires is to put your Thralls in position first for a Vampire's action and then do it.

If you want to blitz someone to open a hole ... run up a Thrall to the correct spot ... if you fail the Blood Lust roll ... you can still run over and Gaze the opponent (which could very well open up that hole as well) and then bite the Thrall.

As for skills on the Thralls. I'm a big fan of Kick, Sure Hands, Fend, and Dirty Player for Thralls in that order of importance to your team.

Kick is invaluable ... the ST 4/AG 4 Vampire can VERY often blow through into the backfield to put a lot of pressure on a ball that is kicked deep. If you get a Vampire with +1 MA ... strongly consider .... Pass Block as the next skill.

Fend means the Thralls are mobile and in order for Vampires to win ... the Thrall placement strategy is the biggest key. Fend does amazing wonders at letting your Vampires do their jobs.

I normally field 3 Vampires and 8 Thralls for a drive. I find that gives me the best mix. On defense ... I always put 3 Thralls on the LOS and the Vampires spread to cover the defense but very close to the LOS so they can blow through for deep kicks. Does this mean you risk getting blocked on a Quick Snap ... yeah ... but ST 4 goes a long way to help you overcome that.

Vampires are difficult ... but you can definitely do great things with this team if you play it right. LRB 5.0 only made the team even better by doing two things to improve them.
1) Hypnotic Gaze now lasts until the opponent is activited .. this is a big deal and one you should not forget quickly.
2) Apothecaries can be used on Vampires before they roll for Regeneration. If you have a Vampire like I do ... +1 ST, Block, Mighty Blow ... using the Apothecary on him if he is killed ... that might be worth doing.

Galak

[falconeyed]

LRB 4.0 league thread.

The above thread may help you. I was trying to most impressions as I was going through a vamp season. Agree with most of what was said above. I would absolutely go with Pro over any other skill first, although I'd take a stat increase over Pro on the first roll. Also, moving thralls to where you want the vamps to go is essential.

I would be more conservative in my defensive set up than Tom. I played my vamps back as safeties until I got three (I started with 2 vamps, 10 thralls, 4 RR and 9FF in a 4.0 environment), at which time I changed the formation a bit and played the three vamps five squares back from the LOS, although I always had thralls set in front of vamps on defensive set ups to protect against vamps getting blitzed needlessly. ST4 is not that difficult to get a 2d block against. Also, I would be careful against getting lulled into any AV8 false security. Sure, it's a hell of a lot better than AV7, but it's not to be played recklessly with.

I'm thinking about going with a vamp team in an 5.0 environment, just to see the impact of fend and wrestle on thrall development. In my last team, I tried getting thralls with ball handling skills as soon as possible in order to play my vamps up on the LOS on offense. Also, allowing the apoth to roll for vamp injuries is huge as well, for the reasons stated above.

Also absolutely do not forget about hynotic gaze. It's the great equalizer and can give caging teams fits. I tried to keep multiple vamps in range of a cage in order to gaze the cage and then run in with a pro / block vamp.

Good luck with it. Post updates on your matches and team development as you go.

Tom, can you be more specific with the "you can do great things if you play it right" comment? Short passing game when needed ala Zons? Full on aerial attack once you get three vamps? Ground game all the way?

[GalakStarscraper]

What works for me with Vampires is massive blitz pressure almost Elf-like pressure. Kick the ball deep and have one or 2 Vampires blow through the line into the back field to apply pressure. Fend Thralls slow down movement forward and one Pro, Block Vampire staying in my half of the field to blitz if the opposing team manages to get the ball forward.

I'm also not afraid to use Gaze to get the equalivent of multiple blitz actions.

I also will usually field 4 Vampires 7 Thralls if on any drive that I'm setting up I have re-rolls equal to the number of turns left in the half to better play the pressure defense.

I score most of my TDs with Vampires on defense. On Offense ... I usually end up grinding down the clock.

Galak

[Jeremiah Kool]

Say what? You can use the Apo now on a Vampire? Even if he´s undead? I really like that but I find it an interesting change. How did it happen?

Isn´t Pro a little bit to unreliable if you want to avoid Blood Lust? Or do you "just" play extra smart and use a reroll without Pro only at certain, important times?

I´m really stoked to play some Vamps and that starting lineup seems very good with 5 RR. I´d love to start with 3 Vamps and 4 RR but your lineup looks much better. With LRB5 journeyman can replace lost Thralls easily and that third / fourth Vampire isn´t that far away then. Or if all fails and your TV drops down to infinity you could induce Mercenarys or even Count Luthor.

As a starting lineup one could also go with 2 Vampires, 9 Thralls, 5 RR and 70 K cash in the treasury. Or even go for 6 RR (head explodes) ? I wonder how many RR for Vampires are too much...if that´s possible at all.

(Man, I really like LRB5!)

[fen]

It's also worth grabbing a couple of Coaching Staff and Cheerleaders to assist in snaffling extra Rerolls from the table. I think 3 of each is the upper limit I'd stretch to, and I'd probably consider 2 of each depending on other teams in the league.

If the KO table rolls in an average manner then you can grab 1 or 2 extra rerolls per match. Just getting one a match on average makes the investment worth it.

As for the Vampires, I don't actually take Pro early on, I prefer to have Vampires that are irritating even when being passive. So I tend to build Block, Guard, Side Step Vampires that can support the Thralls in their exploits. Of course there is always one Block, Tackle, Strip Ball, Pro Vampire that I use to free the ball and I sometimes have a Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow, Pro Vampire that I use on defense to smoosh Catcher types.

I love Thralls.

[GalakStarscraper]

Isn´t Pro a little bit to unreliable if you want to avoid Blood Lust?

I use Pro on any Block or Move action. I normally "accept" most of my Blood Lust failures and let them bite the Thralls unless it was a blitz action in which case I'll probably burn the re-roll.

Galak

[Moogul]

As Galak says, on important actions (eg. Blitz) you definately want to burn a re-roll rather than risk pro failing, but that doesnt discount the pro skill. When it's just a move, using pro leaves your re-roll open for something else. Also, with only one re-roll per turn, if you have to use it on one vamp, having pro on the other vamps gives some extra safety and more reliability.

I still like getting block first, as Fen said it's a good passive skill that works even if I don't bother to activate the vampire. It makes him both a better blitzer and a better runner/catcher.

I do think my weakness in my first game was a lack of gazing - I don't think I even used the skill once. Being able to gaze even whilst bloodlusted is nice, and for opening cages it seems awesome, probably so much that I won't need to go for leap as I'd planned. I think I just need some more practice with it.

Pass block on a vampire seems like an awesome idea - I'm liking this skill more and more (I'm so tempted to take it on assasins in my DE team, looks like a nice combo), particularly when kicking I can just sprint a vampire up the wide zone whilst kicking to the corner.

If you have a Vampire like I do ... +1 ST, Block, Mighty Blow

That guy sounds like an absolute BEAST.

[fen]

One thing I will say in favour of Pro, it's a great skill to have when you've rolled a Pushback result on a 2D block, failing the Pro roll then isn't so bad and it's nice to get that 50% shot at converting the block into a KD. But Block will always be my first port of call, especially with the way that Gazing Vampires tend to be in TZs at the start of my opponents turn. Block isn't as easy to negate as Dodge.

Still, I think my vampires are a lot more passive than most coaches, they're designed to support the Thralls rather than the other way round. Kind of a symbiotic relationship between the sheep and the wolves.

[Jeremiah Kool]

I´ve seen the light after playing several matches with my Vamps. Pro is a must as the first skill. It´s really invaluable.

[GalakStarscraper]

Say what? You can use the Apo now on a Vampire? Even if he´s undead? I really like that but I find it an interesting change. How did it happen?

With LRB 5.0 we tried to eliminate a lot of the this team has this special rule if possible.

One of those that we looked at was .... does it really matter if the Apothecary can be used on the Vampire ... and decided 1) the team could use a bit of a boost and 2) in most movies/books reviving a Vampire is as easy as grabbing a willing/unwilling human and slicing a vein above their mouth. We figured your average apothecary could handle this and so deleted the special rule about Apothecaries and the Vampire team from LRB 4.0 for LRB 5.0.

Galak

[Moogul]

Ok, someone asked for updates, so here's the first. My Dark Elves are currently 3wins and no losses, and doing pretty well for themselves, and today the other player had only brought his goblins, so I didnt feel it would particularly fair if I played my Elves against him, so out came the Vamps again (who I'd actually been itching to play more with).

His team was something like 15 goblins, 1 ball-and-chain fanatic, 4 rerolls, and some assistant coaches/cheerleaders and an apothecary.

After blitzing his fanatic out on my turn one with a vamp, and scoring on turn 2, I held on for a 3-1 win that was anything but comfortable. Fighting a team with every player having dodge and stunty is infuriating as hell! He even managed to seriously injure my Vamp (niggling injury), but luckily he regenerated. I think I managed to use Hypnotic Gaze to better effect this game (read: I actually bothered to use it) though I failed the roll quite a few times.

Anyway, the important thing was that I won, and I got a good few improvement roles out of it. My 2nd vamp went up, got a normal skill, and I elected to give him Dodge (giving me one dodge vamp, and one block vamp). I debated getting pro, but having 5 re-rolls I felt fairly safe for bloodlust rolls (I failed only one in the whole of this match).

Two thralls improved, the first one rolling a double, and I elected to take leader for that extra re-roll. Having 6 rerolls means that I'm pretty safe with the important bloodlust rolls, and if I don't fail any of those gives me a load of versatility elsewhere. This time I debated getting Pass (which I could backup with sure hands next time), but I decided the extra re-roll would be worth it more overall.

The second thrall I managed to roll a 10 (6+4), and went for the +Ma (+AV would be pretty useless on an otherwise awful player), which gives me a movement 7 thrall who I plan to develop into a ball carrier - he *will* be taking sure hands next skillup, barring a double which will lead to pass.

I also got enough winnings from the match to by a third vamp (though one of my thralls died during the match, so I'm still at only 12 players). Looking at my team now they're actually looking VERY solid.

Three vamps, one with dodge, one with block.
9 Thralls, one with move 7 for my backfield player.
5+1 Rerolls.

Suffice to say, I'm looking forward to future matches with them.

Anyway, given the improvement rolls (double and 10 on a thrall), would anyone else have done anything different?[/list]

[fen]

actually, the +AV is great on Thralls. Having tough Thralls that can take a few punches is pretty damn useful, especially when you take into account the fact that Thralls often find themselves out numbered on the pitch.

Still a MA7 Thrall is just as useful. Especially for ball retrival and scoring.

I think you should have grabbed Block on both vampires (if you're skipping out on pro) btw. Leader was totally the right call on the Thrall, it's a lovely 30K Reroll... mmm.

So I would have gone Block, +AV, Leader.