What to look for at 175+TV?

[Warpstone]

The daunting thing about playing high TV matches for me might be that it's harder for me to predict my opponent's strategies just by looking at his teamsheet. I know that tackle becomes imperative when playing in a high TV league, but what other skills (and counter-skills) seem to become more important at this level of play?

About the only rule of thumb that I'm using at a high TV is to focus on defensive skills, since by this point my teams already tend to have most of the offensive abilities they need to normally score. How dramatically does the game change when playing with SPP rich teams?

[Solarhaphaeriom]

One thing I'd be sure to look at is the amount of Claws/MB/Piling On/Dirty Player on the enemy team. Basically, can he bash enough of your players to wreck your plan. Depends on who you are playing though.
But basically, in the beginning a high elf or human team say can play bashy orcs or dwarves without too much trouble. Lose a bit in the scrimmage, outmaneuvre them for TDs (hopefully). But at high TRs, the teams that focus on bashy are likely to rip apart your whole team if you're the TD type, whereas you in return should be able to run rings around them scoring all the time, until enough of your players are broken.
In any case, that's how it's going in our league.

[wesleytj]

I think it's hilarious how relative things are. I remember when we played in 3rd ed, the league rules stipulated that you couldn't start a 2nd team until the first reached TR 250, because we didn't want people bouncing around until they had established with a first team. We saw TR 250 as Medium. Big teams were 350 or more.

Now I see this thread that infers that TV175 is a high TR. I'm just struck by the irony.

To me though, what changes the most as teams get bigger are the amount of specialization and personalization that occurs in teams.

What I mean by that is that the more skills a player has, the more clearly his role is defined (generally). If you have a line elf with sneaky git and dirty player, you have a pretty good idea what that guy is doing. If you see one with kick and block, you can imagine that he's generally only playing on defense or when the bench clears, and that he'll start off the line and in the middle of the field. If you see an orc blitzer with dodge and sure hands, you can bet that he's probably the team's primary ballcarrier type. That same basic orc with mighty blow and frenzy will have a much different role on the team. That's the specialization aspect.

The personalization aspect works like this. If I look at a TV100 orc team, I can see a few things about the guy coaching them, but they're pretty vague. Did he start with a troll? Throwers? More blitzers than black orcs, or vice-versa. Looking at how they chose their roster set up will give some clues about how they play. But that will REALLY start to jump out at you when you look at a more developed roster. I can look at a TV 175 roster and have a pretty good idea of what kind of coach I'm up against, and what kind of game I can expect, even if we've never met.

[Warpstone]

Hi Solar and Wesley, good points and you both hit upon the uber-specialized nature of a high-TV team. What I'm wondering about is whether this specialization seems to railroad successful teams to certain strategies and if it's a significant help down the road to have designed certain players to be 'against type'?

For example, in an Orc vs Elf game: would you worry alot about adjusting to the other team, or just stick with a gameplan similar to what you've been doing all along? It's kind of like in real life sports where some teams are just so good at what they do best that they don't bother much with changing up their gameplan because they really don't have the ability to play well any other way. Is this generally the case after teams skill up? I ask because I'm wondering if it makes any sense to balance my team's skill set--or would that only lead to a generalist team that is not good enough to do anything dominantly enough to cut it at a high TV?

Also, I was kind of struck by Ian's comment in another thread about BB success being frequently about executing a good defence. It made a profound amount of sense and articulated the only way I have been able to win consistently at a high TV. Is this the consensus in your leagues or is it possible for a team to only focus on a different strength (passing, bashing) and be successful for the long term? Is it even possible to be adequately well rounded without losing the natural edge of your roster?

[reservoirelves]

Players will specialize, but teams have to be built to handle different types of situations. A good defense will have to adjust to the kind of offense you will be playing against. Stopping cages and passing plays require wildly different players and tactics. My Diving Tackle / Prehensile Tail player will be the last one in against Orcs, but be essential against Elves.

For most teams your offense doesn't have to adjust much since you have a way that you are good at getting the ball into the endzone. Your Orcs will run your cage a bit differently depending on which team they play, but you won't abandon the cage and play a passing game.

[wesleytj]

For example, in an Orc vs Elf game: would you worry alot about adjusting to the other team, or just stick with a gameplan similar to what you've been doing all along?

It's tough to have a single, "blanket" answer to that question. It depends on a lot of specifics. The only "short" answer is "both". There is some sense that you have to adjust your style to a different opponent, but not so much that you take your team away from what it does well.

In your orc v. elf example, my general strategy as the elf coach would be to allow the orc coach as few blocks as absolutely necessary. I would play a VERY aggressive defense until the orc coach were able to form a cage, making use of kick skill to place the kick strategically, and leap to try to create havoc and prevent the cage formation.

If that fails, then the strategy shifts to a more passive slow retreat, giving up a square or two a turn, dodging away from contact where possible, all the while watching for a flaw or a crack to exploit, in which case it switches back to aggressive again.

Most of that is the same strategy I'd use against almost any other team, especially any other bashing team. Against another elf team, it's not AS vital to keep away from contact as much, and hitting and cage formation aren't as important. The Kick skill also has a more limited effect. Other skills, however, like Diving Tackle or Tackle have a much more pronounced effect.

On offense, though, elfball is generally elfball no matter who you're playing against. And without bragging too much, I think I have that worked out pretty well regardless of opponent.

It's kind of like in real life sports where some teams are just so good at what they do best that they don't bother much with changing up their gameplan because they really don't have the ability to play well any other way. Is this generally the case after teams skill up? I ask because I'm wondering if it makes any sense to balance my team's skill set--or would that only lead to a generalist team that is not good enough to do anything dominantly enough to cut it at a high TV?

I think there's a middle ground, again. I think you want to have a few specialist linemen that are somewhat better against some teams than others. For example, using the elf example again, a couple of guys with Block and Diving Tackle would be great for holding the edge against a fast team like skaven or other elves. They wouldn't do as much against Dwarves, though...the Dwarves aren't going to be dodging away from an elf they could just hit. Against a Dwarf team, line elves with Block/Fend or Block/Sidestep would be better, to help mitigate the damage the Slayer could cause if he pushed you out of bounds.

As you said, though, if you overdo this, you've hurt yourself more than you've helped. It's a balance you have to manage. Another thing that figures into this balance, though, is the racial makeup of your league. If you see a LOT of elf teams, you might think about more Diving Tacklers. If you see a lot of Bashy teams, you can probably skip the Diving Tacklers entirely and focus more on Fend or Side Step.

Also, I was kind of struck by Ian's comment in another thread about BB success being frequently about executing a good defence. It made a profound amount of sense and articulated the only way I have been able to win consistently at a high TV. Is this the consensus in your leagues or is it possible for a team to only focus on a different strength (passing, bashing) and be successful for the long term? Is it even possible to be adequately well rounded without losing the natural edge of your roster?

I don't think there's any question that, in general, it's easier to play offense in blood bowl than defense. The best coaches are GENERALLY the ones who play the best defense.

Not to brag, but my Dark Elf team in our home league has won 6 games in a row, and in that span we've outscored our opponents 16-3. 16 TD's isn't really that much for 6 games for elves...it's less than 3 a game. But the reason we've been winning is that we've only allowed 3 TDs. And we're in that TV range you're talking about. After their last game, a tight 2-1 win over a TV 190 Chaos Dwarf team, we're up to TV 177, it'd be higher but he seriously injured my assassin. We always seem to be missing at least one player, though, so 177 is still the highest we've ever been.

[Snew]

I think it's hilarious how relative things are. I remember when we played in 3rd ed, the league rules stipulated that you couldn't start a 2nd team until the first reached TR 250, because we didn't want people bouncing around until they had established with a first team. We saw TR 250 as Medium. Big teams were 350 or more.

Now I see this thread that infers that TV175 is a high TR. I'm just struck by the irony.

I know what you're saying. It's reallygot nothing to do with this topic but 175 is where spiraling expenses kick in which kind of insinuates that the teams are getting more advanced or that this is a high TR.

I know I'm reaching.

[TuernRedvenom]

At higher TV teams should be geared to either one of these two (or both):
1) defence
2) clock control

So either you need to need to identify what it is that makes their offence work and whether you have the players available to stop them.
Sometimes you know you can't reliably stop an offense, then you need to control the clock.
Sounds easy but you need some experience to get it right.

[browwnrob]

With all my teams i usually avoid all the offensive skills and concentrate on the defensive, I probably reckon Im a better Wood Elf coach than I am any other race, catchers usually get Block/SideStep/Shadowing/Tackle. You would be surprised how effective 2 of these guys are at pressuring the ball, if you manage to stick a couple on a ballcarrier. I figure they are really good at scoring TD's as is, they have all they need, High ma, catch and dodge.

I always think the more you concentrate on the ball, the less a bashy coach can concentrate on hurting your players, if you try to back off from his cage and he can pick off your defence one at a time