Advice on tactics for a new necro player?

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:42 am

Chaos Dwarves are a good team for someone with some cop-on, as your friend seems to have. And they're very flavourful, which might get over the "I'm not playing boring-old-orcs" thing. If you recommend against starting with a minotaur (just buy it later), he'll be up to speed in no time. If you don't want to buy a whole new team yet but have orc and dwarf minis available, it's easy to build a CD team:

Hobgoblin = orc lineman
Chaos Dwarf = dwarf longbeard/blocker
Bull centaur = trollslayer
Minotaur = troll

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:53 am

A well-built Necro team isn't a bad way for a newbie to learn, so long as he doesn't fear taking his lumps. Necros are a pick-your poison team: suboptimal early construction (one Flesh Golem is a waste), too few re-rolls (little Block, low AG, no Sure Hands = need a lot of RRs), or hampered development (having to buy two Golems is a bad place to be).

There are two optimal lists, I think. Others have posted both:

A) Bashy, without enough RRs but with a speedy development option.
2x Golem
2x Werewolf
2x Wight
5x Zombie
2x Re-Roll
1x AC, 1x CL (so you're more likely to pick up that crucial extra re-roll)

B) Speedy and aggressive, but without a credible short-term bashy devekopment option.
2x Werewolf
2x Wight
2x Ghoul
5x Zombie
3x Re-Roll
3x Treasury (so you only need 80k to get that first Golem or replace that dead Ghoul)

That's why Orcs are so cool.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:32 pm

Golums cannot be considered in any optimal list in LRB5.

The lower one is better.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:35 pm

PubBowler wrote:Golums cannot be considered in any optimal list in LRB5.

The lower one is better.

The lower one might be better, but I did coach the first lineup to two league championships before adding two ghouls.... on the way I bought two more rerolls (eventually let one go) and have replaced one wight, two golems, a werewolf and a couple of zombies while banking ~400,000 gp!

Maybe just an aberration...?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:08 am

Early in the season (just about suppertime... sorry, got CCR on the brain), the Golems are great. Once somebody's got a Jug, you've got to have the mechanism to take it down, but with Necro that's not hard (Zombies are great for fouling). Otherwise, having two guys with Stand Firm and S access to start makes a humongous difference.

One Golem, however, is useless.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:40 am

mattgslater wrote: One Golem, however, is useless.

Yep... definitely.... Tried it out and people just isolated and ignored him....

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:35 pm

Golums are over priced on a team which is full of cheap road blocks.

Not just my opinion, 100k Golums made it into experimental rules (but I would have preferred Mutation access).

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:53 pm

I've said this all in the thread on Flesh Golems, but [Reaganesque sigh] here I go again.

The problem is a pricing issue, but it isn't the Golem's pricing in particular. He's worth his cost, in an absolute sense. If an Orc team could have a FG instead of a Troll at the same $, you'd see it every time. (Damn that would be nasty: 5 BOBs and the nose starts with Stand Firm!)

The problem is a money problem in general. Something has to be cheaper, or FGs aren't viable. In order to have a competitive team, you need either an overwhelming ST edge or four AG3 players as a general rule (Dwarfs are almost an exception, as TRRs are very cheap for them, in terms of both money and utility, and with some skills they can simulate a big ST edge -- even then, most coaches either start two Runners and two Blitzers, or get them as soon as they can). With the Necro team, not having 3 TRRs is a big disadvantage, as you have no Sure Hands and little Block. You can't afford 2 FGs, 3 TRRs and 4 AG3 players on 1M as is with this team roster (almost!), but if you reduce the price of anything except the Wight by a mere 10k, suddenly you can.

100k FGs kind-of solves the problem, but if you want to help the Golem out even more, reduce RRs to 60k instead. That way you can get a Wight, a Ghoul, 2 Golems, 2 WWs, 5 Zombies and 3 RRs, making Golems viable early selections: with the FG price reduction, you get 10k less, so you have to downgrade the Wight to a second Ghoul, and a lot of people wouldn't do that. A Zombie and RR is only a better deal than a Golem the first three times... then it's suddenly not so good.

ngoike · Post by **ngoike** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:56 pm

I also suggest a no-golem roster, but for very specific reasons.

I think this team is very difficult to play in LRB5, and has always been one of the least bashy teams. With the exception of various elves and amazons, other teams can field more high STR players and/or big guys. This team is NOT a bashing team, wolves hide that fact by causing alot of casualties due to claw.

What the team does have is cheap regenerating linemen, something the elves and amazons wish they had. So you can just throw zombies at the line without the same concern for casualties. Elves and amazons know they can't play a bashing game, so they dodge away and try to leave you with only a blitz. Necromantic throw zombies at the problem, let your opponent tire himself out on the cheap regenerating guys. Golems just make you slightly better at something your team still sucks at, and they cost alot for the priviledge (especially since you need 2). Eventually you're stuck trying to find something for them to do, but like any low AGI and low MV player the options are limited.

I prefer starting 2 ghouls, with the only reroll skill the team can start with (dodge) plus starting with 3 rerolls. It helps the team in those early games. 2 rerolls and no reroll skills makes me want to abandon the team.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 2:36 am

mattgslater wrote:I've said this all in the thread on Flesh Golems, but [Reaganesque sigh] here I go again.

Are you sure you recall...?

In another thread, or two, a worthy coach was lamenting that Werewolves lost Catch in the transition to LRB5.... While the Weres could take that skill, I feel that the no Golem lineup (especially) calls for a Ghoul to take that skill... and not necessarily for Pass Receptions... but for hand-offs....

Ghoul 1: Sure Hands, Kick Off Return, Block
Ghoul 2: Catch, Block, (or Block, Catch), Sidestep

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:36 pm

It's not that Golums are too expensive for a starting roster or even in an absolute sense (although I think both are true) it's just they are a lot more expensive in TV than a zombie and aren't that much better at the same role.

They have potential as Guard carriers (especialy with the proposed cost increase) but they skill up so slowly that they are still a poor proposistion in all but the longest leagues.

Necromantic have access to good mid priced stars (not to mention merc zombies) and such a lean TV approach is a good one.

Golums do not fit into this plan.

Not to mention they are a difficult player to get the best out, we must not lose sight that this rookie coach we're talking about.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:22 pm

Digger Goreman wrote:
mattgslater wrote:I've said this all in the thread on Flesh Golems, but [Reaganesque sigh] here I go again.
Are you sure you recall...?

I don't remember for sure. I think I was the guy who voted for Mondale.

fen · Post by **fen** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:20 pm

Blah just make Flesh Golems start at MA5.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:29 pm

fen wrote:Blah just make Flesh Golems start at MA5.

Interesting, as I was thinking on what made certain players better than Golems, in comparison.... and it kept coming up to the Golem being worthwhile "if I could only get that Golem downfield"....

So I think Fen may have it... make the Golem Ma 5....

Strange what a 25% increase... 1 square... would make in the worthiness of this player.... One could possibly keep up with Wights, now... go downfield....

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Jan 13, 2008 4:16 pm

Or give them Break Tackle, which would be more Golem-y than MA5. Either way, AG1 could be used as a compensator to keep the price down and to keep them from being used as ball-carriers. If you're going to add anything and sweeten the pot, though, it should be done in a second step (say, trade TS for AV10), as an extra MA or skill at the same price would be too much on paper (and yes, that does matter).

Or... you could just go back to the old Thick Skull and not change anything.

However, either way, there's no way to beef FGs into acceptability. It's a cost issue, and with the costs on that roster being what they are the only way you can get starting FGs onto rosters would be either to change the cost or to make the FG so good that you'd be an idiot not to take him (and Necros already have an expensive guy like that).

So I don't think that the utility issue matters that much compared to the cost issue, at least with regard to the relative attractiveness of Flesh Golems.