Slann and Pact starting Teams

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:22 am

I can see Galak's reasoning for Sure Hands on Slann Catchers, but skills like KoR and Pass Block are luxury items IMO.

At ST2 and AV7, and with no skills, Slann Catchers are the most fragile players in the entire game. Oppositiion blitzers will try to eat them up for breakfast. Dodge is a priority, with Block not far behind.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:59 am

Grendel wrote: I have used the guy as my mobile blitzer/last line of defense kind of player. The first skill he got was Block, the second was tackle.

This would be my role for him as well.

Maybe even Horns as a mutation (Mighty Blow or Diving Tackle on doubles)

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:51 am

Joemanji wrote:Dodge is a priority, with Block not far behind.

We just greatly disagree .... I don't think the Slann need Dodge or Block to win.

And those skills you consider luxeries are because you are focused on the survival of your players ... I prefer to play the Slann with the foot on the gas pedal all the way down.

Galak

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:43 pm

Yeah course, I don't meant to say you are wrong and I am right. Just offering my opinion on my style of play. I'm actually really interested in seeing how your style would work.

Leipziger · Post by **Leipziger** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:07 pm

From my (admittedly small) experience, I'd echo Joemanji's thoughts on Slann. With no players starting with any skills that will keep them alive, then getting some block/dodge is a priority for how I played them (as ersatz skaven), particularly the brittle catchers. Obviously, block will be helpful on defence too (which is a hoot with Slann! Just seeing the look of horror as the opposing coach has to readjust his/her usual cage up and move tactics).

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:09 pm

Joemanji wrote:Yeah course, I don't meant to say you are wrong and I am right. Just offering my opinion on my style of play. I'm actually really interested in seeing how your style would work.

I'll freely admit my teams gets hit for a pretty good amount of CAS, but by not getting Block and Dodge I've focused the entire team on ball acquistion.

Wrestle and Strip Ball on the Blitzers is to free the ball up.

Sure Hands, Catch, Kick-off Return, and Pass Block on the Catchers is all about ball retrevial and motion.

That the theory I've used .... so far its worked.

Tom

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:16 pm

Tom, what is your win ratio?

Just curious, for your tactics isn't wrestle strip ball a bit "strong"?

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:38 pm

Leipziger wrote:From my (admittedly small) experience, I'd echo Joemanji's thoughts on Slann. With no players starting with any skills that will keep them alive, then getting some block/dodge is a priority for how I played them (as ersatz skaven), particularly the brittle catchers. Obviously, block will be helpful on defence too (which is a hoot with Slann!

The advantage of not starting with any Block or Dodge is that you can have more flexibility regarding taking them in the future.

Galak's example of Wrestle Blitzers is a good one:
Most ball retrieving Blitzers benefit from Wrestle more than Block but having both is a waste of TV and they often start with Block.

Not taking Dodge on anyone makes any Tackle on the opposing team a waste of TV.

With Slann you have more options in this regard.

falconeyed · Post by **falconeyed** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:20 pm

Any talk on the pros / cons of 4 RR v. 3 RR with Pact? My gut says take 3 and start with 12 players, but there's some other general comments on TBB suggesting that 4RR is a must.

falconeyed · Post by **falconeyed** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:35 pm

PubBowler wrote:
Leipziger wrote:From my (admittedly small) experience, I'd echo Joemanji's thoughts on Slann. With no players starting with any skills that will keep them alive, then getting some block/dodge is a priority for how I played them (as ersatz skaven), particularly the brittle catchers. Obviously, block will be helpful on defence too (which is a hoot with Slann!
The advantage of not starting with any Block or Dodge is that you can have more flexibility regarding taking them in the future.

Galak's example of Wrestle Blitzers is a good one:
Most ball retrieving Blitzers benefit from Wrestle more than Block but having both is a waste of TV and they often start with Block.

Not taking Dodge on anyone makes any Tackle on the opposing team a waste of TV.

With Slann you have more options in this regard.

Could this approach be done with Pact as well? A couple of the marauders would seem to have to go the Block / Claw / MB / Horns route, just to have some nut crackers, but a couple of Wrestle / Tackle / Strip Ball ball retrievers would seem to make sense as well.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:13 pm

mattgslater wrote:
Jural wrote:All you Chaos Pact guys... Why the skaven? +1MA and -1AV over a Marauder for the same price, plus Animosity? Doesn't seem worth it to me... but maybe the +1MA is that good?
YES!

MA7 over MA6 is the most important MA bump in the game (other than 2 to 3, or 9 to 10 if Sprint is a possibility). The board is 26 squares wide: from the half-way line to the end zone is 13. An MA7 player set up one-back (as close as is feasible on D) can score in 2 turns without GFI: on offense, he can lose a square to avoid a TZ and still avoid GFI.

On top of that, there are all of the other normal arguments for MA (situationally better, but that's a lot of situations). The GFI rules (and their interplay with the turnover rule) really boost the value of MA bumps anyway, as by changing the odds you can open up new tactical options (for instance, moving into position for an early block as opposed to a late one).

Yeah, I'm still not seeing it on an individual level (0-1 on an AV7 starting piece). Of course what you say is right in your examples, but I've had an orc team with a single +MA blitzer, and while he was useful, it was relatively simple for my opponent to keep tabs on him. Well, and the team didn't suffer so much overall. And I didn't need to worry about AV7!

On my dark elves, I can clearly see the advantage going from 7MA to 8MA, that opens up a lot on offense and defense. But the 7MA thing on a single (fragile) piece just doesn't seem that apealing.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:44 pm

PubBowler wrote:
Grendel wrote: I have used the guy as my mobile blitzer/last line of defense kind of player. The first skill he got was Block, the second was tackle.
This would be my role for him as well.

Maybe even Horns as a mutation (Mighty Blow or Diving Tackle on doubles)

Interesting, I can really see the advantage of even a single MA 7 piece in this regard. And the -1 AV wouldn't hurt, he wouldn't take too many hits.

I tend to layer my defense with a deep man on each side, but with potentially 3 big men I could stand to be a little lighter up front and play my safties closer to the line with my nickel back being almost too deep...

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:53 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:I'll freely admit my teams gets hit for a pretty good amount of CAS, but by not getting Block and Dodge I've focused the entire team on ball acquistion.

Wrestle and Strip Ball on the Blitzers is to free the ball up.

Sure Hands, Catch, Kick-off Return, and Pass Block on the Catchers is all about ball retrevial and motion.

That the theory I've used .... so far its worked.

Tom

I use Dodge on my Dark Elves in much this way, I try to put as much pressure on the ball as possible. So I might argue that Dodge on a catcher isn't ONLY about safety.

But your story intrigues me. I would imagine that a team so developed would constantly be down players and out of money, how have you managed to avoid that?

The appeal of Slann (to me) is high risk, high reward. So I get what you're saying as a concept. I was thinking that the team needed two guard players and at least two dodgers to be competitive, and your success story is so different from that!

I have finally started down the path of getting Slann minis, so I'll find my own way and let Joe and Tom know how it went. I might just turn them into a pure bash team, just to confuse people (I still maintain leaping guard would be nigh impossible to deal with en masse... but I would need some AG 4 blitzers or doubles rolling catchers!)

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:04 am

I so want Guard on a Slann catcher.

tenwit · Post by **tenwit** » Tue Jun 10, 2008 12:10 am

Jural wrote:(I still maintain leaping guard would be nigh impossible to deal with en masse... but I would need some AG 4 blitzers or doubles rolling catchers!)

You can avoid that requirement through Guard/Side Step/Dodge. With that combo of skills on at least two (preferably three) Blitzers, you'll be able to get one or two guys into the cage on your opponents turn, leaving your AG4 lineman or catcher free to leap in on your turn.

2+ Leap and Guard is on my wishlist, but I'm building my AG4 linemen as the guy who leaps in after my blitzers have side-stepped in. So far it's worked a treat, and has halved the number of leaps I have to make when on defense. Leaps are fun, but I've come to associate them with 2reroll1, for some reason..

My main problem with Blitzers is finding the space in their skill list for all the skills they need to take advantage of their awesome skill choices. I've decided to never take doubles, +MA, +AV or +AG on the three Guard/Side Steppers, they'll take too long to get all the important skills if I do. I've got a +ST guy I'm grooming for Tackle/Frenzy/Mighty Blow.. I might give him +MA some day.