Bloodbowl mentality - please read

[Vigfus]

Hello,

I'm writing this topic because I'm getting concerned about the mentality of players at differnt bloodbowl tournaments.

I consider myself a good average bb player and am co-organiser of Brassbowl. I've been gaming since 1984 and have played many different games. From the late eighties onward I've regularly attended tournaments. I've seen different games systems become popular and then notice that after a mentality shift some players started to move away, to finally drop myself out because the events just aren't fun to attend anymore.

The first of these was Warhammer, later on I saw the same happen to 40k and DBA. When I came into bloodbowl I was happy as I met a mature gaming community where each tournament I attended was fun. Yet over the past year I'm getting concerned that the same mentality shift that killed other games events is happening to bloodbowl.

I'm talking about the 'winning justifies the means' mentality. Somehow people seem to start playing knives drawn with a real cutthroat mentality, usually justifying it because it's a tournament. The fact that both players enjoy their game seems to be dead last on the list of necessities for a good game.

Just to give an idea, here are some instances that happened in the last 1 day event (not even a tournament) I attended (which was supposed to be fun).

1. One player has a habit of rerolling both dice if one of them is cocked . The opponent had already played this person in the past and should have known. At first instance this was even mentioned. No objections to this where non-cocked dice were pows or pushbacks, but when the non-cocked dice was a skull there seemed to be a problem.

2. Stalling: I can understand stalling in some cases, eventhough I still think it is a poor excuse. But stalling for 6 turns if the losing team has been beaten up to 2 or 3 stunties really doesn't make sense and to me just seems like wasting the stunty player's time. This happened in at least 2 different games during the event, by different players.

3. In the last game of the tournament, one of the tables were playing much slower than the others. As the hall had to be free by a certain time, the organiser went to the table and requested to speed things up, because he needed to close the hall in 15 minutes. He added that if they wouldn't have finished in that time, the game would end there. Ten minutes later the guy who was at the verge of scoring a touchdown requested the organizer to come over because his opponent hadn't made a single move since the organizer left the table.

I know you always get a couple of players who go over the line. The thing that spooked me the most, is that all the above things were all by different players I considered to be fun to play against. If this is how 'fun' players act, it's bad for the hobby. As a result, my respect for these players has considerably dropped.

I love playing bloodbowl and would like to attend more tournaments/events, but I fear yet another great game is about to get slaughtered on the altar of victory. I want to avert that and start the discussion.
My aim is
1. to make this clear to all those wannabe-starplayers. Stop it you're killing the game, besides you're showing what a poor excuse of a player you are.
2. to see if I'm a lone voice in the desert. I suppose I'm not, because I've heard the same from others.
3. an often heard excuse is this is for their NAF ranking. Does this mean a change might be needed in the NAF ranking?
4. Make sure organizers are aware of this, so they can act on it. As co-organizer of brassbowl, we've discussed this and will take steps to prevent people taking away the fun of people attending our tournament.

To make it perfectly clear, I'm not against a good competitive game. I have played or watched truly enjoyable games at a very high competitive level versus amonst others Geggster and TheGreatMC. The games were tense but remained thoroughly enjoyable because the players remained sporting at all time. To me the truly great players don't need any underhand tactics such as discussed above to come out on top.

So, it's on the table, what do you all think? Do we need to make it clear to all in the community? I hope my message gets across and has effect, because I hate to see another game go down the drains because of the fun killing attitude of some people.

[Darkson]

Just sounds like the normal "muppet" you always get, I wouldn't say they'ew a new thing within the BB community.

1. this should have been sorted out between the two coaches before the game - relying on the fact they'd played each other before is no good. However, if it was sorted out before the game, and the other player started complaining mid-game, then yeah, he's being an a-hole.

2. Stalling has it's place, and depending on the scroring system (are there extra points for winning by more than one TD?). If not, why risk the win (Stunties only need 2 players to score in one turn)?

3. Being a a-hole, pure and simple. Personally, I'd have called the TO earlier, and if I was the TO, I'd have awarded the game to his opponent.


I don't see these as signs of the BB tourney scene going downhill, more that the event was unlucky in having a few poor sports all together.

[Pakulkan]

So, if things become as WH, I'm the first one afraid of.

But (commenting your points),

Rerroll two dices when one cocked instead this one is not a usual way to do the things. But, anycase, I respect this. Sometimes you rerroll a skull, sometimes a pow, it takes no difference. If your opponent have the problem when you rerroll a skull, after rerroll many other things...ok, your opponent have the problem. Can't do anything, at least more than simply tell this opponent this silly way of thinking.

Second, I play stunties, and I play many tournaments. I have no problem when a player stalls my goblins. Just fight till the end, blitz three against and sometimes got three pow! and laugh...I mean, this is a usual way to play bloodbowl, I have no problem, my stunties are BB players, this is the stunty mentality, we can do the same as you, so much better

Third, things like that are the really problem. In my Tourney (SkullCup) we are looking all the tables at the beginning; one hour, half hour and 15 min. to the end, looking for players and getting time to the two players to score. If not, or if one of this have no movement in 10 minutes, y just end the match (if they draw or the non moving wins) or get the non moving a turn just with the rolls to score (if the non moving can draw or win). Moreover, this kind of problems appear just because we have slowly players (by itself, not because the result) and usually the two players agree the decision.

I mean, people that can make this game a nightmare just came out if all the funny players (that I think are the most, inside and outside my country) just get the things right and doesn't woory about this (really) Dirty Tricks.

For me there's no problem to meet this people, because usually is just one macth among hundred.

[frogbear]

Some great points and observations.

I am not talking from a tournament perspective here, as I do not have the experience there, but the community needs to let these type of people know that it is not 'kosher' to play in that way (stalling etc.) and failing that, they should be ostracized to make them feel like sh#t.

As an Aussie, we would call this 'un-Australian' and seen as not giving the other guy a 'fair go'. In that respect, they should be subject to open slather.

I know, I am being quite verbose about this and maybe a little emotional, but these type of pricks need to be exposed and either re-educated, or taken out of the scene all together.

In rare occasions, mob justice should be legal.

[Vigfus]

The real thing is, this wasn't by the muppets that you always have around, but by people considered by many to be fun players. That's why I'm concerned. The fact that an a-hole attends a tourney is known, it's the fact that these people were considered to be fun players and they now act like this that concerns me most.

[Pakulkan]

Ok, so, that can be a temporal madness? I don't know what's the answer. We have very competitive tourneys and players here, but always doing fair play.

I'm sorry

[Old Man Draco]

Here here Chritoph. I fully agree with you! (As you know. )

Simon, About the stalling. This should be a game for both to enjoy. There were bonus points for TD's and CAS. I'm happy that the player who finally won first prize was not the staller and he lost because of stalling. So that's where it backfired on him.

But let's face it. We're talking about the Lowland Border Brawl. It is being organised by Quermitt and me so people from Belgium and Holland have an excuse to be together again for a day and have fun. If you win your team gets a point. The best team over 3 rounds wins. But to me and Seb (Quermitt) and many others that is only for a laugh, nothing more.

Too many people are too serious about what should be a GAME. In some cases it's turning into a sport like chess.

This tournament had nothing to do with team rankings for the NAF. Hell I got complaints if it would be NAF ranked. So there was no reason to stall what so ever. No loss of points in any way, except that you might lose a game to stunties or another kind of opponent.

Vigfus is right. Playing BB should be about the game. And if you win, hurray, if you don't too bad, but it's NO BIG DEAL if you loose. too bad, lot's of players don't see it that way and want to win at all costs.

If this kind of behaviour is going to continue, Seb and I are definatly thinking about not letting certain players in any more, because of their "sportmanship behaviour". I really hope that it won't have to come that far and we can have great days like we used to.

BTW, I was the victim of one of the "Stunty Stallers". I had a word about it with the man who stalled against me and he agreed and would not do that again, seeing as it is a game for two players, not just one.

And before people start, this is not just a stunty problem, it happens with Tier one against Two teams as well. So that's not the problem.

At least a Colleges of Magic Stalling won't be an option. I'm certain a rule will flash into my mind to prevent it. Wizards don't like stalling you know!

[Darkson]

Without trying to start the whole stalling debate again, do wizards also hate OTS?

But if there are bonus points for TDs, then that's the stallers lose.

Oh, and I misread #1 - if it wasn't a problem at the start of the game (when the 2nd [non-cocked] dice was a Pow, it shouldn't be a problem when the 2nd dice was a pow. Yes, that's bad sportsmanship.

[Canales]

Hi Vigfus,

This a very interesting post. Thumbs up for bringing it up! What follows comes from my experience in the Spanish tournament scene.

1. Both coaches should agree what should and should not be re-rolled before the game begins. I usually bring this up just to avoid any problems (i.e. I do not wait until the first cocked dice shows up). If the other person makes any objections in the middle of the game, it just shows what a bad sport he is, imho.

2. Stalling. This is a controversial topic, but it seems like a perfectly legal tactic to me. You should try to prevent the other coach from stalling in the first place. If he still manages to stall, hats off to him. That said, most Spanish tourneys award more points for winning by a 2 TD difference (thus taking risks is rewarded over conservative stalling).

What suprises me is that you talk about stunties in your example. Why bring a stunty team (non-competitive by nature) to a tournament, which is the embodiment of competition? Most times the other coach will stall against you just to avoid being the guy who lost to a stunty team.

3. Intentional delays should be forbidden... I have not seen them yet, but here some tourneys award points for turning in the match reports in time. Since most games are finished within 2 hours, this basically means slow players are penalized. You can also consider using the 4 minute-turn rule (which is included in the rulebook after all!).

4. I think the NAF is a driving factor behind the growing number of attendants to tourneys. With more coaches, it is only logical that a few coaches with the "win-at-all-costs" mentality might join the community. However, most coaches remain very sportive and do not take tourneys so seriously as you suggest. This might be due to the BB concept and fluff, which mock a real sport. Or so I think.

5. Finally, Blood Bowl tournaments in Spain are usually 50% Blood Bowl and 50% partying on Friday and Saturday night (the percentages may vary, but it is pretty much accurate). This is very important, because players end up being friends, and when friends play against each other they do not cheat (only brag about their victories to death).

In Spain, there are the so-called Big Tourneys (Barcelona, Valencia and Madrid). Well, starting from last year, another three tourneys (Tabira, Dirty Player and Skull Cup) organize a parallel competition (besides the proper BB tourney), where prizes are given to those players with the best dancing skills, those who drink the most, etc.

Another point to consider is that, since at the end of tourneys, the organizers draw lots for prizes, everyone stays until the tourney finishes!

[Pakulkan]

We also have another point of view.

The SkullCup and Dirty Player Cup didn't give other than trophies to the winners. All the miniatures and teams were gived to the players by loto.

Maybe is not a very useful solution for you, but that's all I can apport to that problem.

[Duke Jan]

Simon, About the stalling. This should be a game for both to enjoy.

This is the best argument against stalling there is. We're not talking about postponing the touch down one turn, but for a substantial part of the game. In this case the good winners will try to score one extra, the bad winners will try to score one. The best remedy would be to make clear that the point system punishes stalling, that a consistent 1 TD win margin can put you behind someone who drew one game but won the rest by a big margin. Or: trampoline traps, lurve potions, mines and Is It A TD?

If a player is inconsistent about how I'm re-rolling cocked dice I usually roll again instead of starting a discussion. I'm there to have fun not endless debates about degree of cockedness before the match. I shouldn't, because I'm rewarding unsporting players. But I really don't want to have a good weekend ruined by renegotiating the definition of cocked before each game either. This comes in other variations as well, like "Ooh lets move back the previous 3 players before I blitz."

My main issue with such behaviour is that it kills the fun for one of the players. Perhpas points for sportsmanship are not a bad idea after all...

[Warpstone]

I really have no problem with stalling (and I play agile teams that get stalled on all the time) since I'm of the opinion that if you can stall, then it's my fault for letting you get that advantage.

That being said, there is a relatively simple measure you can enact to counter stalling and, more importantly, cutthroat mentalities: institute a sportsmanship score for each game.

I just played at the Spike and the organizers had us all fill out a sportsmanship slip to award between 1-5 points to each of our opponents. A sportsmanship tally can affect your overall tourny score (maybe 15% of your overall score), but it's also an ever-present reminder to each coach that your mentality matters. If you're an a-hole, it will only take one tourny to find that out, plus you'll be out of the running for awards. Further, every game forces you to ask "did I have fun playing this coach", which will start to get all but the most hopeless competitors thinking about how they can improve their own sportsmanship as well.

All that being said, some people really just are hopeless and it's the role of commishes and organizers to eventually weed these people out of subsequent competitions if they consistently have trouble getting along with other coaches.

[Darkson]

I just played at the Spike and the organizers had us all fill out a sportsmanship slip to award between 1-5 points to each of our opponents.

Great in theory, not always in practice. I was talking to Andy at GW about why they'd removed this from the GTs, and one of the examples he gave me, one player "threatened" his opponent with a bad sportsmanship score if he called a referee to check a rule - unfortunately not in front of any other witnesses. I've also seen players say "I'll give you maximum if you do for me".

[Sallacious]

I hate those slips. I see people give someone 1 points because they stalled. They were a great opponent with smiles and good things to say...yet receive a 1 because they stalled.

I myself was given a low sportsman ship score due to stalling. I had a chainsaw on the field and needed to remove a big guy and was in position to score. I kept trying and trying... finally broke armour and sent him to the injury box...then i scored.

If there was no big guy... i would have scored right away.

On the flip side... I had another opponent who stalled most of the game. I had 4 orcs in the injury box and 3 more in the KO box. There was no much I could do. He stalled for 6 turns and ended up winning 1-0. I didn't cry. Not much I could do. Oh well.

I just don't get why people get upset for stalling.

[Igor Tahavanale]

I'd agree with most of the sentiments on this thread. I've played against a few buttholes, and yes, they need a slap. But I take issue with stalling being bad sportsmanship.

I just don't get why people get upset for stalling.

Me neither. If I'm playing bashy vs AG+speed I'd say that my opponent demands the ball back ASAP, that is bad sportsmanship. He's demanding a better chance to score (and win) without working for it. It take sonme teams a lot of work to get to the other end, why give it back to a team that can score on a pushback and a few 2's? All teams play to their strengths. If I'm Woodies and my opponent is Dwarfs I'd be amazed if he didn't try to stall as long as possible. You don't give the ball back to 1&2 turn easy scorers for kicks

Part of the game of bloodbowl is me trying to get that ball off the other team by any means necessary (I mean on the pitch, NOT rules cheating). Not part of the game of bloodbowl is gift wrapping the ball for the other team.