Bloodbowl mentality - please read

[mattwhile]

I am fairly new to playing bloodbowl at tourneys, having done it for just over a year. Across nine tournaments every player has been a pleasure to play against, except one.

He ruined my mojo before we'd even started playing. The draw was made and I was down to play an opponent I had played earlier in the day. The organisers looked at the draw and decided to swap two games over so everyone had fresh opponents. My new opponent then spent the next 15 mins complaining that it wasn't fair and wasn't a fair matchup. He was playing amazons and I was playing orcs. He did look at the draw and agreed that there was no other way of changing it.

The thing that really got me was when I found out that he had played against vampires and halflings earlier in the tournament, without a peep about being an unfair matchup. He didn't look upset at the end when he had beat me 2-0. The game was a drag and my heart wasn't in it.

If I'm ever drawn to play him in a future tourney, I'm going to politely decline and spend the two hours watching other games.

[Sallacious]

LOL...I can't stand sissies like that. Good greif. There are a couple of members in our league who I just can't seem to beat. I can beat those who beat him...but just can't seem to pull off a win. There is no point in whining about it. Ugh... poor sportsmanship sucks.

[Da Scum]

A lot of good points brought up which makes me reflect on how I treat "stall-ball" poorly.

It's a tactic all right, and sure one I don't like either at all, but some teams need to play away from the opponent's strengths. I'll admit I used to always on a "Sportsmen" score immediately give the lowest score possible to that opponent for it. (As unless you're talking NFL bookies and all there's no team in it's right mind stalls like that...you got the ball on an open run/drive you hammer it in.)

At least at the recent Spike! 2008 I finally revised that approach, and didn't just automatically give the worst Sportsman score to my only opponent that did that. (Though I'll fully grant I did give a lower than normal score for what I thought was a fun opponent in what proved to be a disasterous bad luck game. ) Guess some habits are hard to break in just one go. At least I didn't just hand out the lowest though automatically, and instead at least took the "player" in context, and not just the fact he'd picked a style I hated at that time which in fact was the correct action to do. (And nearly backfired!)

The flip side of it at the same tournament due to my having changed races to my "non-goblin" speedsters I found I got low Sportsmanship scores for "Running the score". I shrug that one off as the penalty for playing a team where it's best option was to score fast and often to make up for it not winning any battle of attrition.

I myself do not consider myself a 'model" player either for it. I reserve the right to always "berate and heckle" my goblins when they find yet another way to foul things up. I curse Nuffle and the dice when they betray EITHER player with the worst possible roll in what is a tight game. And I get pretty cynical when the luck of Nuffle clearly is making someone run away with it despite any effort by insisting on lousy dice. Practically human nature. Almost... My years in the TBBF days would attest to just how "vocal" I can get laughing and heckling my team for gross incompetence.

So for me, Sportsman has started taking on new; and better context.

Did I enjoy playing the player and sharing evil jokes with them?

Did we equally cheer success and bemoan failing no matter which team it was for?

Do they encourage and cheer on when things are at the darkest before the fouling? Even so far as to suggest an even better course of action for the opponent?


In short just because I didn't like the "style of play" at the moment from my opponent, I shouldn't "punish" the "player" for having the brains to do it.

My two denarii' worth

[Thadrin]

In a "serious" tourney stalling is unfortunately fine. I hate it...though let's be honest...we've all done it (game 4 at the Blood Bowl, unbeaten...I'm Dwarfs playing Wood Elves. There is no way in HELL I'm giving him TWO turns to equalise (pretty sure I won 2-1)!), and I have also been badly burned by NOT stalling. That said, if you're stalling for more than an extra turn...2 at the outside...you're probably being a jerk. Thing is, there's no way to rule against it. I doubt there's anyone who actually ENJOYS doing it...

Not moving for ten minutes is NOT stalling. That is being a dick and I'd be sorely tempted to kick him out of the tourney on the spot.

The Dice? agree before hand one or the other. Most important: Be consistent. I usually only reroll the cocked die myself. If there's room I use a dice cup.

[generaljason]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but stalling is a necessity in my opinion to being successful with a Dwarf team. Same with Khemri too. If you try to run up the score with them with let's say a Wood Elf team then you're probably going to lose all your games. Neither of these teams are designed for it.

I don't begrudge anybody for using this style - even if it's for the majority of the game. The write-up for Dwarves actually tells you to play this way. Same goes for fouling. In league play 16-turn fouls are frowned upon generally, but in a tournament where casualty scores count and teams reset after each game anyway, go ahead.

Again that's just me. I've played all kinds of games, against all kinds of teams, opponents, play styles, ect. When I'm awarding Sportsmanship scores, I'm like Dave. All I ask myself is whether I had fun or not, and winning is never part of that equation.

[Sallacious]

And the last point I want to make on stalling....

A couple of seasons ago when playing my Snap Dragons (Wood Elf), I played an opponent who was undefeated. He tried stalling for a couple of turns and in I came with a wardancer... took the ball and ended up scoring. I later went on to score another defensive touchdown. I won.

Stalling is a good tactic but sometimes doesn't help. Depends on the player and their team.

[Warpstone]

I also wonder if it makes a difference if you're a fan of American football. I like nifty passing plays etc, but I can appreciate a 15 play drive that kills 10:00 minutes off the clock as a thing of beauty and great technical skill. Time of possession is easily as important a stat in football as total yards. Just like Italian's soccer teams playing with ten men behind the ball when they're up 1-0, stalling to kill off the game is a tactic that requires skill and I guess that most gamers who can't appreciate it probably aren't sports fans who routinely see the tactic.

The interesting thing I discovered at a tournament is that when you get people in from different playing groups, the responses to stalling and gaming norms in general are really unpredictable. I wonder if it would help at all to have the tourney organizer add a quick blurb before games start about stalling being a valid tactic and that sportsmanship scores are meant to penalize bad habits/manners, not strategies.

Then again, maybe all this fuss about stalling is due to Bashy teams attracting coaches with anti-social tendencies...

[generaljason]

I wonder if it would help at all to have the tourney organizer add a quick blurb before games start about stalling being a valid tactic and that sportsmanship scores are meant to penalize bad habits/manners, not strategies.

Good point.

Then again, maybe all this fuss about stalling is due to Bashy teams attracting coaches with anti-social tendencies...

That's brilliant.

[Quermitt]

Hi Christof,

I was very pleased in reading the things we discussed/had our concerns about after the recent one day event on the forum! Big thank you for ventilating this in such a good way.

I myself was more or less shocked as well when I witnessed some of the mentioned 'hickups' or heard about the ones I had missed out on. In hindsight I think it was not optimal having to play myself (being both TO and spare player) in stead of 'being there to keep things flowing', hopefully preventing some of the problems and if not being able to respond in a better way.

Apart from that I would like to comment on some points.

Cocked dice just ask for one solution: be consistent. If you do it the same way all the way, no one should bring this into a discussion. I myself never ask before the game what a cocked dice is and what isn't, but am consistent in rerolling only the cocked dice. As I have played people like Christof (if there are any people out there resembling him?!?) who reroll all dice, I can say that I have (fortunately) never had any problems with him rerolling all dice and myself only rerolling the cocked one(s). Causing problems like this is just not in the spirit of the game. Once again: consistency is the key!

The time stalling on the last table was managed poorly by myself and in hindsight I should have awarded the victim a victory. Luckily I gave him a chance to score using the 2-minute rule and in the end he did pull in the victory. I would now even consider this not moving a single miniature during ten minutes as a concede ...

Stalling. A very delicate topic but I can immediately say that I am no supporter of it. Be realistic: what player - rugby, amarican football, soccer, or whatever sport there is - would ever restrain himself from scoring if he has a clear path to do so?!? I think I can say that stalling has never ever been part of my tactics and I even get asked many times "Why didn't you stall as that has cost/could have cost you the win?". My reply always is that I just enjoy scoring the TD and hope to put up a good solid defence in order to score another TD or at least prevent my opponent from scoring against! This has cost me several victories in the past but I always had great games in which my opponents had something to do as well ...

I saw Draco mentioned being one of the ‘victimised’ stunty teams that got stalled, I coached the second one. I was playing goblins and went down 0-1 at half time. Quick score made it 1-1 in my second turn of the second half, after which my opponent started a stalling move for seven turns with his full 11 players counting undead team against my ... three goblins and a troll!?! Most of my turns were limited to unstunning whatever players I had left and tell my opponent he could have another go at making the TD ... Next time I will just ask if he intends to stall until turn sixteen and if so concede the match on the spot in order to go and do some more interesting stuff.

Little relief when in the end my opponent lost the tournament with one point difference with the winner. One point which he could easily have obtained by scoring earlier and scoring again in the five remaining turns (which isn't that difficult if you are playing 11 homicidal undead against a handfull of gobbo's).

I do agree with Christof on the fact that we need to do something about all of this if we want to keep the great community we have to survive. I do not have the answers at handy, but am working on this with several people in order to try and keep things nice, enjoyable and great fun for all. After all we are playing this game during our leisure time and therefore you and you opponent should both enjoy all games! I have never enjoyed being the victim of a staller but cannot imagine that stalling is actually fun to do … Imagine as a non-staller to play five games against stallers during a tourney for which you traveled hundreds or even thousands of kilometers, only to return home to tell to the wife: I spent this much of money, we missed out on that much quality time and I have had an absolutely horrible weekend to speak for it … Not much of an incentive to register for another tourney, is it?

Cheers to all great BB-coaches out there, good night of pondering all thoughts to the cut-throat coaches who might need to rethink their ‘strategies’.

Seb

[Quermitt]

Just like Italian's soccer teams playing with ten men behind the ball when they're up 1-0, stalling to kill off the game is a tactic that requires skill and I guess that most gamers who can't appreciate it probably aren't sports fans who routinely see the tactic.

My apologies but I cannot believe people actually think these are nice games to look at. Where is the tension? Such games always end with me switching to something else on the tv and just hearing the final score in the morning on the radio.

I have played basketball for fifteen years and was very glad I chose that sport as it is a very score-oriented game. Of course there is such a thing as good defence, but each point you scored, your opponent needs to score as well to at least equalize ...

It might be me, but best defence is and will always be the offence!

With all due respect to Greek people on this forum, I was absolutely thrilled to see the Greek team out of the recent European championship during the group phase. The game they played was so defensive and I was extatic about them getting beaten each time for that.

Same goes for Blood Bowl. Each TD you scored your opponent needs to score as well to at least draw the match. I play undead regularly and when I win the toss I always opt to receive. Better option might be to kick first, make sure I am left with four or three turns to score 1-1 after my opponent is 'pushed' into making the 0-1 and then spend the entire second half with a ghoul camping right in front of the end zone with a ball while my mummies and wights beat up the rest of my opponent, leaving him with eight turns of just turning over his stunned mini's ... Not realy my idea of a tense game ...

Just my 2 cents!

[Vigfus]

Hello,

Many people seem to be under the impression that the post is about stalling being an unsportsmanlike tactic. I must say I hate it as much as many and think the staller a whimp if he tries to stall (he should learn how to defend properly in my opinion), I agree that it might be the most effective tactic in some situations (eg. woodelves vs Khemri an example already given, esp. early in the first time)

The thing I'm talking about is stalling without any reason. As I said, as much as I hate stalling, I understand it being used, but a complete team with reserves versus 2 or 3 stunties stalling for 6 consequative rounds? Be honest there's not much the stunty player will be able to do, even if some players come back.

In an event such as the lowlands borderbrawl, it's all about having fun, meanwhile taking a piss at the 'rivalry' between the belgians and the dutch. People are traveling for 200+ km to have an enjoyable day, and this is what they get:
Next turn, Jeez, I'll just flip over this fling here and try to run away with the other still left on the pitch. Ooh yes, and this here treeman is trying to blitz (if he isn't rooted to the spot) and just yells a bit to come closer. I'm sure next time, that coach might be inclined to skip the next event and spend the day with the girlfriend/missus and the kids.

If this happens against players who are considered to be fun to play against, not by the known muppets, this causes concern. The guarantee to have an enjoyable weekend/day is gone.

Just consider it and put it in perspective: as an organizer, who would you rather have at your tourney/event?
Option 1= the 'sportsmen' that might spoil the game for everyone they play against
Option 2 = the player that is going to enjoy himself and very likely make his opponents enjoy themselves as well.

I can ask the same question as who would you rather play with the same options. I know the answer, and if you don't, it's time to seriously start thinking about it.

As a tourney organiser the success of what you organise depends on the enjoyment experience of the players, which is directly linked to the mentality of those who attend. I've attended a couple of events and all those which stand out are those that realise the basic fact given above.

We've run our tournament for 5 years now, and it is on the list of good tournaments to attend. I don't want that and the work we've put into it to be spoiled because suddenly people are sacrificing fun of the game for the sake of simply winning a game, game being the operative word.

I may have won one BB tournament (with a given amount of chance) but I have much fonder memories of other games, some of which I lost and some which I won. But those games I will always remember are the ones I had most fun playing, one even being at the very last table in the last round of the tourney.

Kind regards,


Christof

[Darkson]

You have one fling and one treeman left - you can score in one turn - stalling is a legit tactic.

Personally, I don't stall, as I normally manage to screw it up , but I'd argue if you're going to penalise the stall play, you have to penalise the OTS (either TTM or via pushes) in the same manner. Having seen a league mate subjected to 6(!) TTM OTS in a league game (and yes, I know it was extreme luck), that felt as "unsporting" as game next to it where the Khemri coach was controlling the clock for 5 turns against a skaven team with 4 developed gutters.

[Old Man Draco]

So Simon, you'd rather sit and watch a destructive game than a creative one? A game that brings NOTHING but victory for the staller in the end, or a game that give chances to BOTH players to win.

This is about taking away opportunities to PLAY a game. Your team is all over the place and your opponenent is in fact saying "too bad, because I want to win, you don't get to play any more." Isn't that a crappy idea?

If someone does that to me, I will concede and spend my time elsewhere. If I know many players will play like that, I won't bother to go to tournaments anymore. It's that simple. I'm there to have fun. Not to watch my opponent sit back and do nothing for 6 turns, or in the worst case scenario, even 10 turns. Hell, I can understand the ONE turn stalling, or even TWO, but that's the limit. 6 Turns stalling against a guy who has a troll and 3 goblins?

And then you say, but he can still score a one turn TD. So if he does, doesn't that give you the option to score another one in the FIVE turns that are left. Sorry mate, but if people are that scared of losing a game GAME, I don't want to play against them.

(and allthough I use YOU all the time in this post, you should know it's not directed against you personally. It's my personal opinion, YOU just happened to be my opponent. )

[Vigfus]

Sorry Simon, but if that is your attitude of playing a game. If I get teamed up against you ever, remind me, I'll happily concede. I've got better things to do than play someone with that attitude. The reason why, see above.

As said by Marc, 1 or 2 turns I can understand, but if you start justifying 6 turns, that's my feeling. As said I'll happily ask a repair and if that's not possible I'll just give you the game and go watch an interesting game and have a pint at ease.

[hoomin_erra]

You have one fling and one treeman left - you can score in one turn - stalling is a legit tactic.

Wellllllllllllllllllllll.......

Only if you get REALLY lucky, and the ball lands on the fling who will be on the LoS. So i would say yer looking at atleast -3 on the catch, and the pass.