Development + tactics advice for league Skaven team

[Vinz D.]

Good morning,

Since a month or three, I'm playing in a local league and despite a few good matches, my Skaven have been sorely losing the last three ones (0-3 TDs and 0-3 CAS against Skaven, 0-6 TDs and 5-4 CAS against Wood Elves, with 2-5 TDs and 1-2 against Wood Elves last night)... Now I can blame my dice for the poor results, but I've got a bit of a nagging feeling that I can't really make a decent stand with my team against the more advanced opponents (guard-heavy Dwarves, block-heavy Orcs, guard-heavy Amazons, Wood Elves in general).

My team:

#1 Rat Ogre (2 SPP)
#2 Blitzer (4 SPP)
#3 Blitzer w. guard (7 SPP)
#4 Thrower w. block, extra arms (16 SPP)
#5 Thrower (0 SPP)
#6 Gutter Runner w. block (10 SPP)
#7 Gutter Runner w. AG5 (10 SPP) - MNG
#8 Gutter Runner w. AG5 (10 SPP)
#9 Gutter Runner w. block (10 SPP)
#10 Linerat w. MV6, ST4 (9 SPP)
#11 Linerat w. AG4 (12 SPP)
#12 Linerat w. block (8 SPP)
#13 Linerat w. kick, AV6 (7 SPP)

3 Re-Rolls, 2 Fan Factor, 2 Assistant Coaches, 2 Cheerleaders, 30k in cash

If anyone can give some pointers on how to use what I've currently got to my advantage (together with some ideas on how to properly have my players advance), I'd very much appreciate it.

Greetz

[Ullis]

My thoughts:

1. Fire the AG4 linerat. I'm sorry, but he's just too expensive and I bet he isn't pulling his weight in terms of TV. This will hopefully help you get inducements or at least lower the inducements your opponent is getting. Inducements are good for Skaven, especially BB's or a wizard, which usually guarantees a defensive TD.

2. I might even consider kicking the injured ST4 linerat as well, especially if you're looking at the long term, since move 6 is slow but move 7 is fast. Together with the AG4 linerat they're adding a whopping 90k to TV with only marginal increases in usefulness. Linerats never won any games.

3. Get Leap on one of the AG5 GR's and Strip Ball on the other AG5 when they reach 16 SPP.

[TuernRedvenom]

My thoughts:

1. Fire the AG4 linerat. I'm sorry, but he's just too expensive and I bet he isn't pulling his weight in terms of TV. This will hopefully help you get inducements or at least lower the inducements your opponent is getting. Inducements are good for Skaven, especially BB's or a wizard, which usually guarantees a defensive TD.

2. I might even consider kicking the injured ST4 linerat as well, especially if you're looking at the long term, since move 6 is slow but move 7 is fast. Together with the AG4 linerat they're adding a whopping 90k to TV with only marginal increases in usefulness. Linerats never won any games.

I really, really, really wouldn't fire these! AG 4 linerats are great! They can dodge out and reposition, they can pass and catch. They are covert scoring threats, since everyone will be watching your gutters. Just 4 points away from his next skill for which I would seriously consider wrestle over block (tackle next).
The STR 4 linerat is even better (he needs block asap though)! Low str is one of the weaknesses of skaven. This guy is great for punching a hole in a hard to assist corner without having to rely on the unreliable big guy. He can tie up 2 STR 3 players all on his own. The -MA is just a minor nuisance IMO, all other permanent injuries would have been worse on this guy.
Linerats with Stat increases win plenty of games if you use them right!

[Andromidius]

(Please note, I quite possibly have no idea what I'm talking about. Disregard if you think this is all utter rubbish.)

S4 Linerat = line fodder. Keep him so you can free up a Storm Vermin for blitzing holes in the enemy lines (and the one with Guard stands in the middle of the Scrim to make that Linerat a scary S5!). Next skill is block, followed by Tackle or Guard. The blitzing Storm Vermin can then take Mighty Blow, Tackle and Horns to make him into a dangerous threat to anyone standing alone.

The AG4 Linerat would make a good pairing with the SPP0 Thrower as ball retrival while on the offense, and can quickly make a pass to a Gutter Runner once they've broken through the enemy line. Though long term I'm not sure what you could do with him.

Your Block/Extra Arms Thrower can be made into an offensive catcher/handoffer. Put him in position to receive a quick pass from the other Thrower, and then he can either hold onto the ball for a turn while the Gutter Runners make a run for it, or he can move and make a handoff to them on the same turn. He'll also be a brilliant interceptor - Pass Block and Very Long Legs should be on the cards, as well as Nerves of Steel if he ever gets to that stage.

Your Gutter Runners can possibly go the following paths (my suggestions, so don't follow them if you disagree):

#6 Gutter Runner w. block (10 SPP)
#9 Gutter Runner w. block (10 SPP)
Sidestep, Fend, Guard. These two will become incredibly slippery and impossible to keep hold of as they protect the two AG5 Runners from being blitzed.

#7 Gutter Runner w. AG5 (10 SPP)
#8 Gutter Runner w. AG5 (10 SPP)
Sprint, Sure Feet and pray for +MA! These two will become your main scorers, and since you have two of them you can always count on having someone standing to receive a passed ball. Hopefully.

~Andromidius

[Leilond]

Only one things
If you want to play a damaging Blitzer, horns is 90% of the time less effective than Tackle, Frenzy and piling on. With a double I will surely go for dodge or claws, but dodge is my first choice ever

[Mad Jackal]

I suggest keeping the agility 4 line rat.

I suggest cutting the Rat Ogre. What a waste of a piece in my style.He;s a fragile bum who will waste your blitz or just stand there.
I'd much rather fill the spot with a line rat and use the extra tv saved elsewhere. Like the 14th player. Fend and wrestle are great skills on your linerats and help generate turnovers on defense too.

I'd put the st4 line rat on the LOS and never apoth him. No need to cut him. He'll stick around and save injuries to other linerats and tie up additional opponents while he sticks around. Why spend money to replace him now? Plus, on the LOS in the scrum, his move bust is not too often missed. Get him block or wrestle and then fend.

Guard for the blitzers is good. Mighty blow is nice too. And without the RO, one might consider some dauntless.

I don't play much offense with rats. I'm always kicking. I make my gutter runners ball extraction and retrival specialists.

While the line rats wrestle and fend the opponent into a stall or mistake.

[mattgslater]

I'd put the Block GRs in the wide zones as cornerbacks. From one square off the sideline, they can get next to the opposing WZ without a GFR, and from three squares off the LOS, they can score in 2T without a GFI even if they lose two squares to maneuvering.

That ST4 guy should go in either at safety, so he can blitz alone or tie up a TZ in an anchoring position, or at outside LB, where he can force play to the other wide zone and run in from the weakside. If you want to play keep-out, put him in at inside LB (to soak up the blitz) opposite the Rat Ogre -- if you can play keep-out by making the oppo beat a high-strength linebacker on a blitz, you can have an easy shot at freeing up the ball in QP range so you can turn the game over in two turns. I'd wait until he had Block before doing that, though. Give him Block or Frenzy next: if you take Frenzy, you'll want to buy another Re-Roll. Block might be a better option in a perpetual league, as you'll want to kick this guy up to the line when your other linos start developing.

The AG4 lino is a great ball-getter opposite one of the Throwers: I'd probably use at least one of these guys as outside linebacker on a Skaven team, protecting the cornerbacks and sitting in a relatively forward position to get more pressure on the ball while not presenting a quality strategic target for the blitz. Later, when your SVs have Guard and the Block GRs have Side Step, you can play all kinds of funny games vs. other Agility teams, bringing your "safeties" and corners up a square, presenting a single-line front. This is a dangerous strategy for a lot of teams, as Leapers may get through anyway, but Skaven with two ST4+ guys have less to fear, as a rat can get his snout just about anywhere in his backfield.

[DoubleSkulls]

1. Fire the AG4 linerat.

7347 players are really good! Okay so he's 20k more than a wood elf lineman with the same stat line, but as an auxillary S3 Gutter runner he's great. Next skill is either block (I'd not give him wrestle as he might be a ball carrier - save that for the S4 line rat) or dodge on doubles.

[Marlow]

Those AG 5 Gutter Runners want Leap & Block! Make them Wardancers

I would keep the Rat Ogre and put him with the ST 4 Linerat on the line. Makes it tough to break through. Do not use your Apo on either of them if they are injured.

[fen]

I'm just going to go into my skill choices here, I have taken the members of your league into account (as far as I can with the information given)

#1 Rat Ogre
#2 Blitzer
#3 Blitzer w. guard

Honestly, considering what you have coming up I'd probably take Guard on the other Blitzer asap (unless you get doubles, then I'd go with Claw), the Rat Ogre I'm not sure about - I'll leave it to someone else.

#4 Thrower w. block, extra arms
#5 Thrower

Nice Thrower, the unskilled one should be groomed into a passing player (Accurate, , the Extra arms one a runner/receiver (nerves of steel, Dodge). This pair will allow your GRs to double and triple team opposing players instead of having to play recieving duty. You also have the option of giving the extra arms guy NoS and the other one Dump Off, then running them in pairs. This is very effective at limiting the impact of Wardancers.

#6 Gutter Runner w. block
#9 Gutter Runner w. block

Get Dauntless on one of these two next, it's amazing to have an MA9 guy who can 2D Blitz ST3 or 4 players with a single assist. The other one can go a little more standard with Side Step + Fend (a really annoying combo to deal with)

#7 Gutter Runner w. AG5 (10 SPP) - MNG
#8 Gutter Runner w. AG5 (10 SPP)

Get Block on one of these two, Wrestle on the other. They're valuable players so the second skill they have should be designed to protect them against Block dice. Wrestle will also allow you to build a dedicated ball sacker with one (Wrestle, Dauntless, Tackle) Leap is also a very viable option when you're AG5.

#10 Linerat w. MV6, ST4 (9 SPP)
#11 Linerat w. AG4 (12 SPP)
#12 Linerat w. block (8 SPP)
#13 Linerat w. kick, AV6 (7 SPP)

Kick guy needs to go, but not before you have a replacement for him. +ST Rat and +AG Rat are amazing. Get Block on them both next as one helps provide resistance when facing Grinding teams (btw on a 6+4 get him the +AV, 6438 Block is amazing) and the +AG one means you have another potential reciever, which again means more scoring threats and more mobile assists. Block is my skill of choice here.

You'll want 2 more linerats with Wrestle/Block + Fend. Plus put Fend on that Block linerat as his next skill.


3 Re-Rolls, 2 Fan Factor, 2 Assistant Coaches, 2 Cheerleaders, 30k in cash

Purchase wise
I'd get an apoth asap, another Lineman (groom him to get kick, sack the -AV one then get another unskilled one) and a 4th Reroll when you can.

It's a really good team mind you. So don't be too downhearted.

[stormmaster1]

I'd also consider strip ball on the AG5 guys. IMO all skaven players are expendable, and noone can avoid AG5 players.

[mattgslater]

AG5+A Access = Leap next, or NoS on doubles. Follow NoS with Pass Block, and you have good times.

[Vinz D.]

First of all, thanks everyone for the responses so far. I really appreciate it.

In regards to the Rat Ogre, I completely understand on fully agree on the downsides of fielding it. I have used it on several tournaments and a couple of league matches now, so I do know from experience that I roll way too much ones when I need to pass the Wild Animal roll (a feeling that might be familiar to other Skaven coaches), but next to that, I've stopped using re-rolls for it, as that's something I never have managed to succeed with at all... However, even if I fail the Wild Animal roll, the Prehensile skill will not be negated through it, which means that against AG3 teams especially, it is still quite a handy player to have on the pitch.
With skills, the only ones I can think of are Juggernaut (which could be usefull during the blitzes, in the absence of the Block skill), Guard and Block on doubles. The Rat Ogre remains to be one of the biggest targets in terms of enemy blocks and/ or blitzes, so any defensive help I can get (making Block one of the more primary skill choices for it) is for the better on that account.

In the end, the same goes for the S4 Linerat (and -1 movement is something I don't even consider using the apothecary for, which I do have, but had forgotten to mention in my first post), as it will level a tad faster then the Rat Ogre will usually do.

All in all, the posts so far in regards to the development are excellent to go with. That will most definitely help out, though any tactics on how to use the team as it is against the various teams I'm facing (highly developed Wood Elves, block-heavy Orks, guard-heavy Amazones, guard-heavy Dwarves, which are the four 'big' teams in the league, with almost all the other teams present and developed to a smaller account) would be most appreciated.

Greetz

[DoubleSkulls]

I'd also consider strip ball on the AG5 guys. IMO all skaven players are expendable, and noone can avoid AG5 players.

I think that both AG5s need block or wrestle next to increase their longevity and because they are good skills to have. After that there are lots of good choices

Blitzer - strip ball - dauntless - tackle
Ball Retriever - leap - big hand/sure hands
Dancer - leap - strip ball etc

I'd definitely want one of the gutters to have strip ball.