Facing advanced Amazons

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:10 am

Master Wang wrote:I agree it's all down to personal preference, BUT I do like the thrower. By having one on the field, you free up a gutter runner to do more running, and you don't need to give one sure hands. His lack of agility can be countered with accurate and a mutation (needs a bit of luck admitedly), and NOS helps with getting the ball out of tackle zones. Also he gives you access to Leader.

The point with sure hands is that a skaven team doesn't have much use from it unless they try to controll the clock vs other dodgy teams like wood elves. In that case you need to be protected against strip ball so you preferably need a STR 3 player with Sure Hands (2 guarders in the cage make sure that wardancer can only throw half-die blocks at your ball carrier). The thrower is better for this role because he starts with Sure Hands and has the strength advantage (just needs block).

On a normal offence you'd let your gutter runners do the ball handling but since they pick up the ball 5 times out of 6 anyway you don't need sure hands, you can take more usefull skills instead.

fen · Post by **fen** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:29 am

Tuern has it spot on. That's exactly what I was saying.

Leilond wrote:Obviously everyone has his mind, but I consider a Thrower a waste of money and team position. A Gutter runner with Sure hands is 10 times better than a thrower. It happened to me a lot to pick up the ball near one or two tackle zones, and the difference between AG 3 and AG 4 becomes huge in this situation. I will always prefer to see the ball in the hand of a gutter than a thrower, for the speed of their feet.
I haven't got a thrower in my team at all, not in the reserve box too

I found those the most effective way, and I fired my thrower when I discovered that I used it like a costly linerat

By the way, this is only my experience

You'll want to read Tuern's post above. It explains the reasoning why I wrote what I did, why your skill selections are not typical and as such why it's not the best advice to give to someone. Additionally, a Gutter Runner with Sure Hands is certainly not 10 times better, it's 1AG and 2MA + Dodge better, but 1 point of ST worse. That's hard to quantify, but it's not a factor of 10 for sure.

Additionally, it's always easier to get an MA8 or AG4 Thrower over a ST3 Sure Hands GR and they provide 20K access to a leader reroll. Two Throwers is situational, but one is a must have.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:17 pm

And when you give a thrower Accurate, then, for the purposes of offense, he is better than a gutter runner once he has the ball, because he fumbles less often. The thrower really suffers for lacking reliable dodging options in relation to the GR's.

I usually set up with a gutter runner and a thrower on the back field. Then, if the ball lands in relative safety, I let the thrower pick it up. This is of course a lot riskier than having a GR pick it up with a reroll, but most times I can afford the risk. If I fail I'll let the GR pick it up next turn. This leaves more gutter runners to threaten the end zone. Next turn, if I want to score, I can either hand-off or pass with the thrower. Handing off is easy and passing with AG3 and accurate is better than GR's can manage. If the kick lands close to the LOS, then a GR is usually a better choice for picking up, especially if I have a reroll.

And only yesterday I only had one GR left on the field. In that situation I was really glad for the thrower.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 2:50 pm

Blodger blocked with two dices stand on his feet 70% of the time (exaclty 69,44%), better than a Thrower with block blocked with one dice that stand on hi feet only 66% of the time... it is better to be blocked with two dices against a gutter runner with the block skill than to be blocked with one dice against a Thrower with block skill... thus the strenght isn't an issue at all... it is always better to have the ball in the hands of a gutter than a thrower, no matter of the strenght difference

By the way, I prefer to manage the ball with a gutter runner, because with him you can change attack side in a way that the thrower cannot be able to do.. and to be clear, I really never (o nearly never) pass the ball, usually handoff to a "11 square away from TD" gutter runner, thus the throwing ability isn't a matter for me

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:29 pm

Percentages aside, I think the fact that you don't even have a rostered Thrower would say volumes to a talented opponent and the league should cater for that, less pass block and more shadowing/diving tackle.

having a rostered Thrower will save on rerolls as stated elsewhere, and the mere threat of options will give your opponenet pasuse for thought.

but if it works for you then fine, my only point is that it is not standard advice. No harm in giving it though.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:39 pm

voyagers_uk wrote:Percentages aside, I think the fact that you don't even have a rostered Thrower would say volumes to a talented opponent and the league should cater for that, less pass block and more shadowing/diving tackle.

having a rostered Thrower will save on rerolls as stated elsewhere, and the mere threat of options will give your opponenet pasuse for thought.

but if it works for you then fine, my only point is that it is not standard advice. No harm in giving it though.

Picking up the ball with a Thrower is 89%, with a Gutter (Without sure hands) is 83%
I usually do not need to pass at all... a simple handoff is usually all that I need to score a TD... If I really have to pass, it's usually a quick pass, that means the same percentages of the pick up result. Do not pass the ball at all, and you'll save your reroll even more

... the less you roll, the less you'll need to reroll

I'm simply saying that the thrower is, for my game style probably, totally subobptimal... nothing more than a expensive linerat... the times that his pass ability come to be really important (only short or longer passes) are too few to consider it valuable. I prefer to be able to flee 9 square with the ball and be nearly sure to not be catched by anyone except the very quicker players (like wardancer) that have to be VERY lucky to put my blodger down using only 2 dices, than having the ball in the hands of a MA 7 rat (like an human blitzer) without the right skills to flee and resist blocks (dodge)

But as anyone know, this is a very good game, and different strategies played by different coaches pheraps work with the same effectiveness

Post by **voyagers_uk** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:46 pm

well said.

A point for you to note though which I am not sure I got across.

assuming you have 3 GR's I have to focus on taking them out, I usually GR hunt early in a league situation anyway. A few well placed Bounties to encourage the same in a league setting and before long your best players are experienced line rats and rookie GR's

Prior to my Hiatus from league play I used to regularly rack up at least 7-8 casualties against Skaven teams in my league (with Elves/Dwarves and/or Undead). I may have focused on a thrower to prevent the deep threat if you had one, but by not it makes my life easier.

You are right though, different strokes for different folks, and we all love the game.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:57 pm

voyagers_uk wrote:well said.

A point for you to note though which I am not sure I got across.

assuming you have 3 GR's I have to focus on taking them out, I usually GR hunt early in a league situation anyway. A few well placed Bounties to encourage the same in a league setting and before long your best players are experienced line rats and rookie GR's

Prior to my Hiatus from league play I used to regularly rack up at least 7-8 casualties against Skaven teams in my league (with Elves/Dwarves and/or Undead). I may have focused on a thrower to prevent the deep threat if you had one, but by not it makes my life easier.

You are right though, different strokes for different folks, and we all love the game.

Ok, so the thrower is nothing more than a reserve for injuried gutter runners.
By the way, I usually suffer uncountable casualities during my games (expecially against dwarves and undeads) because of known skaven poor armor, but rarely on my gutters and usually on the "flying gutters", not the ball carrier... You've to be a very smart player if you manage to catch so much gutter ball handlers around the pitches

Marlow · Post by **Marlow** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:28 pm

Leilond wrote: nothing more than a expensive linerat...

They are certainly not needed on a Skaven team but for 20k over said Linerat I think they are worthwhile. It gives you extra options.

Would you pay 30k for Leader on a Linerat? If so then Thrower becomes an even better deal!

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 6:49 pm

Leilond wrote:Blodger blocked with two dices stand on his feet 70% of the time (exaclty 69,44%), better than a Thrower with block blocked with one dice that stand on hi feet only 66% of the time... it is better to be blocked with two dices against a gutter runner with the block skill than to be blocked with one dice against a Thrower with block skill... thus the strenght isn't an issue at all... it is always better to have the ball in the hands of a gutter than a thrower, no matter of the strenght difference

This is assuming the one blitzing you doesn't have Tackle (or Frenzy, or Wrestle). Which he normally will have as dodgy teams need to build dedicated sackers. Often they have wrestle as well.

let's assume your opponent builds a decent sacker: wrestle and tackle, then we get this:
chance of knocking down opponent on 2 dice (eg Gutter in non-guarding cage) = 75 percent
chance of knocking down opponent on 1 dice (gutter in guarding cage or thrower in non guarding cage) = 50 percent
chance of knocking down opponent on 1/2 dice (thrower in guarding cage) = 25 percent

Those differences are big! The thrower has 25 percent less chance of getting knocked down in equal circumstances.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 7:28 pm

TuernRedvenom wrote:
Leilond wrote:Blodger blocked with two dices stand on his feet 70% of the time (exaclty 69,44%), better than a Thrower with block blocked with one dice that stand on hi feet only 66% of the time... it is better to be blocked with two dices against a gutter runner with the block skill than to be blocked with one dice against a Thrower with block skill... thus the strenght isn't an issue at all... it is always better to have the ball in the hands of a gutter than a thrower, no matter of the strenght difference
This is assuming the one blitzing you doesn't have Tackle (or Frenzy, or Wrestle). Which he normally will have as dodgy teams need to build dedicated sackers. Often they have wrestle as well.

let's assume your opponent builds a decent sacker: wrestle and tackle, then we get this:
chance of knocking down opponent on 2 dice (eg Gutter in non-guarding cage) = 75 percent
chance of knocking down opponent on 1 dice (gutter in guarding cage or thrower in non guarding cage) = 50 percent
chance of knocking down opponent on 1/2 dice (thrower in guarding cage) = 25 percent

Those differences are big! The thrower has 25 percent less chance of getting knocked down in equal circumstances.

This is a non-sense. You're considering a 2 skills for my opponents sacker but none for my own cage, where ther will be CERTANLY at least one guarding blitzer. It is obvious that if you give skills only to one team, the percentage will lose all its meaning
All this situation happens in this way soo few times that I really cannot understand why I've to give my ball to a 7 MA player when I can manage it with a 9 MA player... well... pheraps I'll give it another try

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:17 am

Leilond wrote:
TuernRedvenom wrote:
Leilond wrote:Blodger blocked with two dices stand on his feet 70% of the time (exaclty 69,44%), better than a Thrower with block blocked with one dice that stand on hi feet only 66% of the time... it is better to be blocked with two dices against a gutter runner with the block skill than to be blocked with one dice against a Thrower with block skill... thus the strenght isn't an issue at all... it is always better to have the ball in the hands of a gutter than a thrower, no matter of the strenght difference
This is assuming the one blitzing you doesn't have Tackle (or Frenzy, or Wrestle). Which he normally will have as dodgy teams need to build dedicated sackers. Often they have wrestle as well.

let's assume your opponent builds a decent sacker: wrestle and tackle, then we get this:
chance of knocking down opponent on 2 dice (eg Gutter in non-guarding cage) = 75 percent
chance of knocking down opponent on 1 dice (gutter in guarding cage or thrower in non guarding cage) = 50 percent
chance of knocking down opponent on 1/2 dice (thrower in guarding cage) = 25 percent

Those differences are big! The thrower has 25 percent less chance of getting knocked down in equal circumstances.
This is a non-sense. You're considering a 2 skills for my opponents sacker but none for my own cage, where ther will be CERTANLY at least one guarding blitzer. It is obvious that if you give skills only to one team, the percentage will lose all its meaning
All this situation happens in this way soo few times that I really cannot understand why I've to give my ball to a 7 MA player when I can manage it with a 9 MA player... well... pheraps I'll give it another try

First of all one guarding blitzer doesn't matter as it still leaves half your cage exposed: you need two guarders to cover every open square. Second, elves have no problems getting lots of skills fast, at least faster then skaven storm vermin. Third, even in a guarded cage the thrower still is 25% less likely to be knocked down, so it isn't really relevant whether you have those 2 guarders or not: the thrower's odds of keeping the ball will always be better. Fourth, the MA of the thrower isn't so important as its STR. You're not looking to score fast nor move the ball quickly, you're looking to keep the ball while beating the snot out of your opponent. If you do need to score fast you can still hand off to a runner.
If you play vs elves (except dark elves) which are managed well (I have a feeling you haven't faced such a team yet) then your best chance is aiming for the 2-1 win, which means ball (and clock) control.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:28 am

Leilond wrote:Picking up the ball with a Thrower is 89%, with a Gutter (Without sure hands) is 83%

The percentages are a bit misleading as they are so close to each other. 89% means that you fail 1 time out of 9, whereas 83% means you fail 1 time out of 6. That's a big difference! Of course with a reroll the GR's chances go up to 1 time out of 36, but many times rerolls are something to be hoarded.

On another note, access to Leader is not that great. If you compare it to a linerat plus a reroll then, in terms of TV, the difference is only 20k (the difference in terms of cash is higher because you have to pay doubles on the reroll and Skaven usually aren't swimming in cash). Then you have to take into account the fact that the Leader-reroll is only protected by AV7. You cannot count on it being available for the second half, where rerolls are usually more valuable for Skaven because of player attrition. What's more, its at least 6 SPP's, which could give a linerat something useful, such as block, kick, fend or wrestle (or even doubles for extra goodness).

Anyway, Leilond puts up a spirited defence against all the thrower-lovers (including me), but I still find them great. I'd like to see Leilond play Skaven as it sounds like there's something to learn there.

Leilond · Post by **Leilond** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 8:59 am

Ullis wrote: Anyway, Leilond puts up a spirited defence against all the thrower-lovers (including me), but I still find them great. I'd like to see Leilond play Skaven as it sounds like there's something to learn there.

Thanks... and I'd like to play with some of you, because I think I'd got do learn more than I can teach

P.S.
Statistcally, I need 3, pheraps 4 pick up every game... Once every two or three games it could happens I miss that pick up for the lack of a thrower (without considering that I have one gutter with sure hands), that doesn't mean I lose the game... Thus every three games it happens to feel the lack of a thrower for a single pick up, but I had for the rest of the games the great advantage of having my ball moved quicker and surer (thanks to the AG 4 and dodge ability) gutter runner. It's easier to controll the clock with a 9 MA player than a 7 MA thrower, in my experience

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:55 am

A Thrower with Accurate controls the clock better than any Gutter Runner can. Because he can throw the ball better than they can if needed, he's almost identical for the purpose of hand offs (MA7 is very similar to MA9 in most hand off situations because of the distances involved are rarely that great and if they are you can always pass - also it's actually better to Pass with an accurate thrower if you need to move the ball 10 squares, safer than a GR GFI hand off)

But most of all it frees up four Gutter Runners to do whatever they feel like on the pitch instead of three.

And that's the biggest reason a Thrower is better, you don't want to waste one of the best players on your team with ball cuddling duties. Gutter Runners should be out there providing mobile assists, threatening to score and Dauntless Blitzing people off the pitch.

Now what you have may work for you, but it is not atypical and as such it's bad advice to give to someone else. Especially when you don't know the make up of their league. It is always better to give general standard skill choices at first and then talk about the mix up choices dependant on player skill/style and league composition.