Throwing and Dwarves

[McKrackenfield]

Throughout this message board, I have seen a tremendous aversion to dwarf players passing the ball. I as a dwarf player have tremendous success with passing the ball. One of my runners has 13 complete passes in 11 games. I just won a game last night against Chaos Dwarves on the strength of 2 completed passes - a long pass and a short pass. In another game I scored a 2 turn touchdown after recovering the kickoff 3 squares from my own endzone using 2 passes (one to a troll slayer who scored the touchdown).

I have developed a passer - 6 3 3 8 block, thickskull, surehands, pass, accurate, HMP works great.

I have a +ag blitzer who works great as a target and my other runner has block, pro and fend to act as another catcher

I can always run for touchdowns if I need to, but having pass adds another dimension to my team. If people have to worry about my passing, it means they are not worrying about my running and vice versa

[Warpstone]

I think the aversion is probably not because dwarves can't pass, but rather because most dwarf coaches would rather use their drive to grind their opponent to a pulp

Even then, most Dwarven passing games tend to use Short Passes as glorified hand-offs (a "HB toss" type of play) since if you're passing long, it's probably because you're in a position you didn't plan on being in.

Pass and accurate are definitely good and common choices for a Runner, since it's nice to have that help when you are forced to score quick. But Mighty Blow and Guard are probably the skills that Dwarf Coaches want to see used most from their team sheets.

[Digger Goreman]

...it's probably because you're in a position you didn't plan on being in....

OH!, like THAT'S ever happened to a BB coach!!!!

H$!!, I thought that was "game on", as usual....

[Storch]

We had a dwarf coach who refused to go the mighty blow route and instead developed a passing game to great effect.

It can be done and can be done effectively, it's just not the standard cookie cutter dwarf development so a lot of people don't even consider it.

[McKrackenfield]

Don't get me wrong, I have got 4 blockers with guard and 3 mighty blow guys, but just simply grinding is short sighted. Now my league is bash heavy, 2 dwarfs, 2 cd, 2 chaos, lizzies, 2 undead, dark elf, 2 norse, and orcs, so grinding has not gained me much,

[cyagen]

Passing with Dwarves give you the flexibility to try something else than caging and keeps your opponent off-balance.

The point is that it does not maximizes the strength of the team, so that's why people do not do it often. Also it may have to do with the type of player that like to play dwarves.

My dwarf team always try to develop a passing runner and always accept a +1AG to blitzer and slayers. Having more options means that your opponent has to consider them and can't leave the blitzer alone in scoring position. That means less people to stand in the way of the cage.

[Andromidius]

Also useful if you're kicked a long ball, and you need to pass it up into a cage quickly to avoid it being snatched by teams like Wood Elves. Though you will need to have a Blitzer as the receiver if you want full backfield coverage.

~Andromidius

[SillySod]

Also useful if you're kicked a long ball, and you need to pass it up into a cage quickly to avoid it being snatched by teams like Wood Elves. Though you will need to have a Blitzer as the receiver if you want full backfield coverage.

~Andromidius

This, 2 turn scores, and dire emergencies are the only places I'd use passing in a dwarf team.

You cant really adopt it as a regular scoring play (thrower-reciever) because very few players on the team have the movement, agility, or strength to avoid being man marked. Add to that the basic unreliability of the actual pass itself and its just not a good tactic. HMP is an interesting emergency play skill though.

I've been trying out Dwarfs recently and had quite a bit of success. My motto for the team is "keep it boring noob" which I've written on a post-it note and stuck to the screen - whenever I consider fouling or passing or doing something exciting I look at the message and stop myself just in time. I noticed that I do considerably better when I stick to the motto. Inventiveness has its place in a dwarf team but you should only use it for safe actions.

[Gimli]

I'm afraid I tend to agree with the "keep it boring" approach to Dwarf play. The more moving parts to a play, the less likely that it's going to succeed. Unless it's an emergency or there is no downside (turn 7 or 8 and the opponent can't score) throwing just doesn't make a lot sense with Dwarves. One approach, though, that I picked up from one of the posters, is to veer slightly away from the Guard/MB approach and throw in some unconventional skills - DT, Fend, Grab, etc. They create unpredictability that throws off other coaches, who are expecting just Guard/MB bashing.

One thought, though, if you want to develop a Dwarf passing game is work on developing a catcher on your roster, but use Barik Farblast (only costs 60K) as your thrower. He's a Dwarf Runner with Pass, Strong Arm and HMP, and you can get him any time (although for just one drive).

[PubBowler]

Add to that the basic unreliability of the actual pass itself and its just not a good tactic.

Ding Ding Ding.
This thread is over, nothing more to see here.

[McKrackenfield]

It is really funny to read this thread.

Everyone is so set in their ways with dwarves that they won't look at another option unless desparate. The biggest problem that some people have with dwarves is lack of option in the game. I try to use all of the options to give myself the greatest chances to win that I can.

[McKrackenfield]

another thing,

SillySod mentioned the unreliablility of the pass - everything in blood bowl is unreliable. There are no guarantees that the grind and run game is going to do anything either - no guarantees that you will knock people off of the pitch at all.

Using unreliability as a reason in this game is kind of a cop out.

[Andromidius]

Throwing isn't really the issue for Dwarves. It's catching.

But considering that Dwarves rely on the hand-off, this doesn't mean they can't pass instead. The odds are still the same for someone to catch a pass or a handoff.

Hell, get a Blitzer with +1AG and most of your problems disappear.

Though I'd still never try to play like Elves - Dwarves should only ever attempt a quick/short pass play to cage the ball quickly.

~Andromidius

[DoubleSkulls]

I would say that a more sophisticated view is to understand the risk/reward ratios of the play rather than thinking its all random so which one you pick doesn't matter.

So without any skills Dwarf passing is 3+ pass, 3+ catch (for quicks) - that's only a 44% chance of success. Pass or catch skills gets you up to nearly 60% (and a TRR is a little bit better than that).

So you are looking at about a 1/3 chance of losing possession of the ball even with a TRR - and moving the ball an additional 3 squares, plus potential move of the receiver - so best case is about 8 squares.

Blocking on the other hand will only over about 3% of the time - less than 1% with a reroll. It also carries the benefit of having good chances to remove opponents from the pitch - meaning more blocking opportunities.

So blocking is generally a much better risk/reward ratio - because although the benefit is less the risk is much less.

[mattgslater]

I have developed a passer - 6 3 3 8 block, thickskull, surehands, pass, accurate, HMP works great.

I have a +ag blitzer who works great as a target and my other runner has block, pro and fend to act as another catcher

This is what makes a Dwarf passing game possible. MA5+/AG4 mean "potential receiving target if it'll score... even without a RR" while Pass/Accurate means "I can totally QP if there are no penalties, and a SP or QP at -1 can be entertained." That doesn't mean you develop a "passing game": it means you develop the BB equivalent of an option play.

Normally, I'd say "don't do it," but a dedicated passer and an AG4 player change that to "keep the threat alive, but don't rely on it."