How should I set up my Orc team for defence and offence?

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:21 am

As I discussed here in a previous thread on TBB, I am playing an Orc team in a 1250k non-progression tournament.

I have almost no experience playing Orcs (just played my first game with Orcs on FUMBBL last night) so I have no idea how to set them up for offence and defence.

In my one game last night I did come to realise that the Orcs are a lot slower than my regular team, Dark Elves. Having predominantly MV5 or lower meant that I had to be a lot more careful with my positioning. The game last night was against Skaven who can just run rings around the Orcs. I managed to pull out a 2-1 win but I didn't really have any idea of how to set up my team on the field.

On defence I planned on using a Guard Troll and 2 Block Black Orcs on the LOS. The rest of the defensive set-up I'm not so sure about. mattgslater suggested taking 2 SF Blitzers to hold up the wide zones. I like that idea but I don't know how exactly to set them up as he suggests.

I was possibly thinking of having them set like this:

|XBBO

With | being the sideline, X being an empty space, B being the SF Blitzer and BO a Black Orc.

That would encourage teams to run inside the 2 Orcs, towards the middle of the field. This helps me offset my slow movement as it is easier for me to defend against players in the middle of the field.

I have no idea where to put the rest of my players. I still haven't decided on whether to take 2 Throwers or 1 Thrower and 1 Lineorc. I really like the idea of a Goblin with Diving Tackle. Throw him into the backfield and get him next to the ball carrier. My opponent then has to use his Blitz to get rid of the Gobbo or risk falling over while dodging away from him.

The trouble with that is there are only 11 spots on the field. The Troll, 4 Blitzers and 4 Black Orcs take up 9 spots. I want to take Leader on 1 Thrower and I would like to take Kick as well. In order to do that I need to give Kick to one of the Black Orcs or Blitzers or give it to the Gobbo. I've got a tough choice to make.

My offensive set up will vary depending on my opposition. Having the 4 Black Orcs should allow me to get 2d Blocks with just 3 players. This leaves me with 1 Black Orc and 4 Blitzers to either set up the attack, help protect the Thrower (or Throwers) as well as Blitz. Other than that I haven't put much thought into it.

Thoughts?

Olaf the Stout

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:47 am

First! Don't take Kick on a Black Orc!

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 1:49 pm

Browse over the last few pages on this forum, there are loads of threads about orc defensive setups. Somewhere there is a whole bunch of different defensive setups for playing against leap, high speed, etc. Basically browse any thread that has "orc" in the title.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:43 pm

Yeah, what Wang said. But at 1.25M (assuming this money is all for roster purchases; I haven't looked up the format) this is the roster I'd buy.

1 Troll: 11
4 Blitzers: 32
4 BOBs: 32
2 Throwers: 14
1 Lineman: 5
2 Goblins: 8
1 Apothecary: 5
3 Re-Rolls: 18

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:39 pm

mattgslater wrote:Yeah, what Wang said. But at 1.25M (assuming this money is all for roster purchases; I haven't looked up the format) this is the roster I'd buy.

1 Troll: 11
4 Blitzers: 32
4 BOBs: 32
2 Throwers: 14
1 Lineman: 5
2 Goblins: 8
1 Apothecary: 5
3 Re-Rolls: 18

Matt,

It is 1250k but you can buy one normal skill per player for 20k each. There were a quite a number of rosters with skills suggested to me on the thread I linked to in my first post. You posted in that previous thread as well.

In that thread you talked about using Stand Firm Blitzers in the wide zone to halt any drives on the wings. Any idea of how to set the Blitzers up to do this? I couldn't quite picture how exactly you were suggesting to set them up.

Olaf the Stout

Master Wang · Post by **Master Wang** » Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:59 pm

There's a lot of repitition and things that won't be relevant to you, but check these out. The first one has the most variety of defensive setups shown. All the links have diagrams, so with a lot of explanation, others with a bit of debate:

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=24798

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=24669

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... hp?t=25365

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... sc&start=0

http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/vie ... c&start=15

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:12 am

Thanks Master Wang. I was just going through the forum, looking at some Orc threads as you suggested!

You post should make sure I don't miss anything.

Olaf the Stout

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:21 am

OK, so 1.25, with 20k per skill. Any limit to the number of skills allowed? Is it one per player? Any opportunity to buy doubles?

Assuming no opportunities to buy doubles, one skill per player, here's what I'd do:

2x Blitzer with Guard
2x Blitzer with (Stand Firm, Tackle or Frenzy)
2x BOB with Block
2x BOB with Stand Firm
1x Troll with Guard
1x Thrower with Leader
1x Thrower
1x Lineman or Apothecary (it's a wash; quality for odds)
2x Re-Roll

Given a one skill per player structure, my instinct would be to let Guard linebackers protect the cornerback rather than to try to beef up the corner. But if two skills on a player is an option, then drop the Apoth/Lino to put Stand Firm on both Tackle/Frenzy guys, and you'll be forcing oppos to go into your ST4/Block (this gives you a cheerleader or FF, too).

Here's how I'd set-up on D. ZA is a Blitzer with SF and/or Tackle, at cornerback. ZB is a Blitzer with Guard at outside linebacker. BA is a BOB with Block or Stand Firm at inside linebacker, while BB is a BOB with Block or Guard on at line-end. TR is a Troll at the line, TH is a Thrower or Lineman at safety.

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- BB TR BB -- --|-- -- -- --
-- -- ZB --|-- BA -- -- -- BA --|-- ZB -- --
-- ZA -- --||TH -- -- -- -- -- TH|-- -- ZA --

This can be varied a little. Stand Firm is great against Frenzy, of which you'll see a lot in these rules. In that case, move ZA or ZB so that the two are on the same parallel. This will make inside Frenzy either futile or dangerous (but watch out for Juggernaut: you can cede the sidelines against ). Playing the corners (ZA) a square deeper is good against Wood Elves, Skaven or Slann. You might also do it with the safeties, but this is risky.

If you're allowed to take a double, you might consider a BOB with Side Step. That guy can be put at BB, but one square outside, so as to hug the wide zone, and moving the safety inside two squares and up one. Then when the OLB falls, he can fall straight back, and there's nowhere to go. The Thrower or Lino or whatever gets blitzed sometimes, but against bash just step him back one square and he'll do the same thing (not vs. speed/agility... but if elves are stacking the line, probably throwing 1d blocks anyway, and blitzing inside to make a hole with a 2+ dodge option, you know you're in good shape).

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:30 am

Matt,

Your assumption was correct, only 1 skill per player and no doubles allowed.

You don't recommend taking Kick as a skill? I would have thought it would be useful to take. I'm just struggling to find someone to give it to that won't be setting up on the LOS or the wide zone.

There are only 4 players that won't be in either the wide zone or on the LOS. 1 will be my catcher with Leader. 2 others will probably be Black Orcs. I was hoping for the final spot to be taken up by a Diving Tackle Goblin. This means that unless I give Kick to a Black Orc (not really ideal), I have to lose the Gobbo.

Hmmmm, anyone have another solution to my problem?

Olaf the Stout

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:14 am

Orcs really aren't fast enough to get optimal use of Kick. I've started giving it to a Thrower, but you really shouldn't do that.

By all means, drop the rookie Thrower and take a DT Goblin.

Olaf the Stout · Post by **Olaf the Stout** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:21 am

Matt, I think I'll be taking close to the line-up you suggested (I think you overspent by 10k though). The only change will be a Gobbo with Diving Tackle instead of a second Thrower, and different skills on the Blitzers.

I really think that having 1 Blitzer with Tackle and another with Strip Ball will be useful. I plan on taking that instead of Guard on 2 of the Blitzers. The other 2 Blitzers with Stand Firm will stay.

With that in mind, would you make any changes to the defensive set-up you proposed above?

Olaf the Stout

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:30 pm

In that case, I'd put the two SF guys in as cornerbacks, to keep opponents from sneaking through the wide zone. I'm not at all sure that it's better than putting two Guard guys at outside linebacker (in fact it's not nearly as good vs. bashy opponents), but getting Stand Firm on the corners instead of Guard on the outside LBs does carry the advantage that the blitz-absorber (the corner) isn't the guy with the utility skill. In that case, put the toolbox guys (Tackle and Strip Ball) at the outside backer position to support the Stand Firm cornerbacks. Personally, I'd be more tempted to get Frenzy than Strip Ball: more utility.

So... if the left margin is the wide zone, Gu = Guard or toolbox skill, and SF = Stand Firm or toolbox skill, then this is what I mean:

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|Line of scrimmage
-- -- Gu --|
-- SF -- --|

Including the first four squares to the right of the WZ line (that is, out to the middle):

Code: Select all

-- -- -- --|-- -- BO TR
-- -- Gu --| -- BO -- --
-- SF -- --|Th -- -- --

So there's no point in blitzing the guy with Guard, as there's no place to go through. This means that replacing Guard with a toolbox skill means that your toolbox skill guy will probably be standing, but is likely to be covered. This is an argument for Guard and Frenzy more than for Tackle or Strip Ball.

The BOBs on the end: Guard or Block? Either is a fair choice. For the BOB inside linebackers, I'd go for Block over Stand Firm. And of course Guard on the Troll is critical.

Ullis · Post by **Ullis** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:31 am

I'd listen to matt and not take Strip Ball. I suggested Strip Ball to an Orc Blitzer a while ago and was convinced that it's not a good idea.

This is just off the top of my head, but I'd say you need to meet at least one of the conditions below to benefit from Strip Ball (one of the advantages is the fear of it even if you don't get to strip anything):

1. AG4+ (to be able to dodge into a cage)
2. Stunty (dodge)
3. Move 8+ (to reach the ball carrier effectively)

The list means that Gutter Runners and Wardancers are optimal Strip Ballers right out of the box, but that's not very surprising. Orc Blitzers don't meet any of these conditions. If you get a shot at the ball carrier with an Orc Blitzer, then you get a fair chance of putting him down anyway.

So, my hypothesis is that Strip Ball on an Orc Blitzer isn't that great and you'd benefit a lot more from some other skill.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:42 pm

Frenzy is like nerfed versions of Tackle, Strip Ball and Mighty Blow all rolled into one. Strip Ball is great for cage-busting on a 1d blitz, or for disrupting the cage before it forms, the former being a sub-optimal strategy for a high-ST team and the latter demanding maneuverability you don't really have. It benefits greatly from access to A skills (esp. Leap or Side Step) to get close to the carrier, and AG4 on a couple teammates, as successful use of Strip Ball implies that the ball will fall in a TZ with no blitz action available, so the oppo gets to apply the penalty to pick up and either force a dodge or apply a penalty to pass. Plus Strip Ball isn't likely to see lots of opportunity in a skill-heavy tournament. I mean, your team would look at that skill and chuckle, with all your Sure Hands and Stand Firm. Why think your opponent would be any different? Dwarfs, Humans... even Elves in this format will ignore SH, and while you'll be able to victimize Undead with that (maybe), the same is true of Frenzy or Tackle.

And I disagree about the MA8 thing. Skaven Linerats can take Strip Ball; the important thing is that they have Gutter Runners to take it to the house after they do. Orc Blitzers would be good with Strip Ball... if Orcs had Gutter Runners instead of BOBs.

If you're thinking about cage-busting, forget Tackle or Strip Ball or Frenzy and just get Guard. Guard is one of the most versatile skills in the game, and two Stand Firmers and two Guarders will not only be hard to get through on D, but will be killer on O, as the two skills in conjunction (esp. once you get BOBs in on the action) is great for shoring up the cage.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Have you thought about Grab? I'm just sayin', 'cause if I was playing Pro Elves in this format, I'd do something like this:

2 Blitzers w/cool Blitzer skills: 26
2 Catchers w/Leap: 24
1 Thrower w/Leader: 9
1 Thrower w/Kick: 9
3 Linos w/Side Step: 24
2 Linos w/Wrestle: 16
1 Apothecary: 5
2 Re-Rolls: 10
2 left for AC, CL or FF: it's a wash in my book. In a league, I'd lean to FF because Throw A Rock or Get the Ref will kick your butt if you lose, but FF's effects are diluted by comparison to the direct impact of AC/CL (+2 on the gate is highly likely to yield +1 FAME, but certainly not guaranteed; I don't know the math offhand, but it's 1296 perms, so it wouldn't take TOO too long) and resurrection formats plus the lack of a winnings roll take some of the oomph out of FF. If AC/CL, I'd take one of each over two of either, but see above notes about ill-timed rocks.