Minotaur for DE?

[Jural]

ST acces on elves = a bunch a jumpup PO MB players... that will make Khemri look like kindergarderners

http://www.arosbb.dk/default.asp?p=pl&pid=2728 34cas in less than 20 games

Witch Elves with Piling On and Mighty Blow would be fouled out of existance pretty rapidly, I'd suspect.

Here's How I view the strength skills for Witch Elves: Multiple Block is useless, Piling On, Grab, and Guard are of questionable value, Stand Firm is worse than Side Step, Juggernaut is a poor sub for block. Thick Skull? I'd prefer my opponent's Witch Elves cost 130k and came with Thick Skull!!!

So it really comes down to Mighty Blow for me... But I think Mighty Blow alone may kill it.

[CoachScott]

Elves with access to high strength or bashy players would just make them too good (slow moving trees being the exception). I think the balance is quite good the way it is.

Also, while I've only been playing DE's for one season, they dont seem to need a bump to me, all those MV 7 AV 8 blitzers are fantastic, not no mention frenzied crowd surfing witch elves - whats not to like!

[Grogmir]

....
Also, while I've only been playing DE's for one season, they dont seem to need a bump to me, all those MV 7 AV 8 blitzers are fantastic, not no mention frenzied crowd surfing witch elves - whats not to like!

Nothing, DE's are a great team, As long as you only have 1 runner and ignore Assassians completly their a really strong team.

I think they the true test of a BB coach (just like humans actually). Why? Because they don't have a set game plan like other teams... you must know all BB styles and tactics and anticipate your oppenents moves rather than just sticking to your own gameplan.

But then I would say that! :p

[AK_Dave]

I agree that DE don't need a bump from a big guy, but I disagree that the only way to have a strong team is "1 Runner and no Assassin".

I'm not convinced the Assassin is a BAD choice, but as a "lineman with options" he has potential. Guess it depends on league-vs-tourney, short-vs-long league, and bashy-vs-agile opponents. The Assassin works okay for me, but I try to keep him off the LOS and use him to harrass like a safety. I find that even runners/catchers who can outrun him often don't want the risk of being shadowed and stabbed, so they'll take a wider route to avoid him entirely or push to the side opposite the Assassin. He influences the game by directing opponents away.

But I think what you're getting at is that by avoiding the Assassin and takine only 1 Runner to develop as a Thrower you minimize the number of AV7 players on the team.

With that I agree.

My favored short-development tournament team for DEs is to load up on Blitzers, 0-1 WE/RU, 2RR, and lots of Linemen. 1xWE (or Runner) is the only AV7 player I want in a short development team, and I'd rather have the WE than a Runner since I won't have time to develop any Pass skills.

But despite using Minotaurs in both of my original DE teams, I don't see the need for them today.

[CoachScott]

I'd only take an assassin as my 12th (or 13th) man, only to be used against low AV teams, otherwise kept as a reserve. Though the comment AK_Dave made about restricting the movement of catchers is intereseting, I might have to look into it.

[TeflonDon]

I really don't think that DEs need to be improved - as someone said earlier I'd much rather see the woodies loose the tree, or even better that their catchers had their speed reduced, so that Skavens could once again field the fastest players on the Blood Bowl fields.

The DEs lack a dedicated thrower (but the runner can be somewhat of a subsitute), and comparet to other elves thy lack speed. But the four blitzer provide ample opportunity to compensate.

What I really like with my DEs is their ability to mix it up - on defence they can be aggressive or passive, and their attacks can be based on passing as well as running. They may not excel at either, but they are very hard to predict.

The first games I played in my current leauge I blocked very little, dodged the linemen on the LoS out, and made strategic blitzes. Then when playing a Wood Elf team I threw their coach completely off guard by placing blitzers on The LoS, and punching my first attack straight through the middle, even forming a cage (which I usually avoid). In my oppinion that is the great fun with the DEs - they have the setuop that allows them to change their game plan every once in a while.

[AK_Dave]

I agree, You can play to inflict pain, or you can play to score. I like to play to score, but what is fun about a DE team is that it gives me just enough edge that I can lay some hurt along the way. The fact that they don't have ready access to ST4 or Strength skills makes them a lot less "hurty", but put MultiBlock on an Assassin or Mighty Blow on a Witch Elf and that dynamic changes in a hurry. So fast that I wouldn't actually want to see them have regular access to Strength skills.

DEs can have a dedicated Thrower, in the form of the Runner. He has access to Pass skills, and Dump Off suits him well as a ballcarrier near the LOS. It also serves him well downfield as a potential scorer, so you have the flexibility to build him out with SPP into whatever you want: a pure Running Back, a Tight End Runner/Thrower, or a scrambling-out-of-the-pocket Elway-style Thrower.

Its not that they need improving, but that their passing game is distinctly different than that of, for example, High Elves. The DE team has nothing to compare with this: 90K 6 3 4 8 Pass, Safe Throw. Nor should they, by default.

If the DE team were going to get a change, I would in fact change the Runner but not to make him a better Thrower. I'd change the Runner to make him a better Runner. Either:
1. 90K 8 3 4 7 Dump Off (GAP/S)
2. 90K 7 3 4 7 Dump Off, Nerves of Steel (GAP/S)
3. 100K 8 3 4 7 Dump Off, Nerves of Steel (GAP/S)

#1 puts the Runner on par with other *Elf Catchers for speed while not taking away from their unique points..
#2 epitomizes the broken field runner, the scrambling midfielder, and is the DE version of the Elf Catcher - only slower.
#3 combines both in a way that compares with the Elf Catcher, but may be seen to steal a little thunder from the Elf Catcher.

Overall, I think that if Woodies took a little hit (esp trim their Catcher to MV8) then everyone else under the 50% line (such as DEs) should see a little statistical bump without any actual changes.

TeflonDon's experiences as a DE coach mirror my own. I took DEs 4-2-0 to Champion a local tournament by simply using them to be the opposite, or foil, to every team I played against. You're bashy, I'm dodgy and use my agility; you match/outclass my speed/agility, I play hard and bashy. They require finesse on the part of the coach and surgical precision with blitzing and blocking.

They ARE an advanced team to play, so it stands to reason that they won't show as well for coaches who aren't experienced with them. Yet plasmoid's stats show them at just a hair below the 50% bubble, suggesting to me that in the hands of a coach who knows how to use them, DEs hold their own with experienced coaches making up for losses by inexperienced coaches. Hypothetically. There isn't enough fine granularity in plasmoid's statistics to advance this as a theory.

CoachScott: The Assassin is something that you have to build a little psyche around for your opponent. Throw him on the line once and stab, or better yet MultiStab. Once or twice. After that, your opponent (in my experience) will either avoid him, or go after him. Either way, play to it. Last game, I had my opponent (Humans) gunning for him seriously. On two of his offensive drives, he went after the Assassin with half his team (bashing the screen, moving to assist, bashing the Assassin, then unsuccessfully trying to find a way to get a Foul in). I turned over both of those drives and scored on them, ending 4-2. The fact that he dished out a couple Stuns, one KO, and attracted a damage like a lightbulb attracts moths was awesome.