Down with Re-rolls!!!!

[Jural]

This is an idea I've been kicking around for about 18 months now, maybe more. I playtested it a little bit around here, and have even opened it up for comments on various sites (where Darkson showed me a glaring hole in my plans!)

But I've thought about it a bit more, and I really think it's a worthy idea. In truth this isn't an appropriate LRB 6 add-on, but it would make an interesting Blood Bowl variant, and it reduces dice rolling!

Concept and "Problem"- De-couple success and turnovers. At the moment, a coach who seeks to minimize turnovers also ends up succeeding more often (why? because Blood Bowl typically has two outcomes- sucess and failure+turnover.) Why should this be? A troll slayer dodging past an elf and hitting the ball carrier down die probably won't succeed very often, but the current rules means you are an idiot to even try it!

Solution- Remove re-rolls, and replace them with "momentum counters." A momentum counter can be used only once per turn when the result of one of you actions would normally end in a turnover. When a momentum counter is used, play continues and the turnover is ignored. The player who's action caused the turnover resolves the failed action normally, and his turn ends immediately. If a player holding the ball causes a turnover, a momentum counter can not be used to prevent a turnover.

Skill change:

Pro- A player with Pro can use a momentum counter to re-roll any dice roll he is required to make, except injury or armor rolls. A player with Pro can re-roll a result using a momentum counter even if he is holding the ball!

So, what do you think? The few times I tried it we really had a good time (even with the problems Darkson mentioned later.)

[Ullis]

If I understood this correctly, this would add to the value of skills that allow rerolling failures? This would be because team rerolls are removed from the game.

It would also change game dynamics in the way that its good advice to do low risk moves first and then try the high risk Blitz on the ball carrier after everything else is done. So now you could try that Blitz on the ball carrier and if it works, great, the rest of the team can converge on the ball on the ground. If not, the rest of the team can position accordingly, that is, mark potential receivers and hinder the movement of the ball carrier.

The problem with this is that it rerolls do allow shots at those high risk - high reward things, like dodging with zombies or picking up the ball with Sauri, would suddenly become a lot harder to pull off. Picking up the ball with a Saurus is 33 % without a reroll but with a reroll it goes up to a respectable 55 %. Admittedly, under the proposed rule another Saurus could try the pick up after the first failure, but that would tie up two Sauri.

By the way, what where the holes in the plan earlier?

[Aino]

Correct me if I misinterpret your idea but as Ullis said; it seems that what you want to achieve (or will be achieving) is boosting risk taking / heroïc plays...

Leaping a player inside a pocket as "free move", having a shot 2D blocks down at the ballcarrier knowing that the rest of the team wil be able to cover things anyhow (... cover the free ball or defending if your attack didn't work)

The more perverse effect imo is that all ballplay will be succesful almost all the time.
=>
1) Passing is sur to succeed... No need for accurate or catched passes... even if it lands on the ground, without turnover you could rush a player for the pickup. Heck the player you were passing to could even still be in range of completing what you wanted (like scoring ^^) even with spending one or 2 squares of movement to get the ball were it landed.

(and about picking up! =>)

2) You make multiple attempts to pick up the ball possible. First failed => momentum => second attemp...one of those (or both) might even be rerolled by sure hands ! And I'm not even considering failed pick ups (NOT CAUSING a turnover!) that bounce right in the arms of another of your players...

Seems to me like the ball will be safe 99 % of the time, but for the risky heroïc plays. Ok your idea gives them more importance... but in the end i'd rather loose the ball to someone who came up with a brilliant play or who pressured me into making a mistake, than to the one "free kamikaze move" you would get each turn...

my 2 cents
William - Aino

[Darkson]

(where Darkson showed me a glaring hole in my plans!)

So, what do you think? The few times I tried it we really had a good time (even with the problems Darkson mentioned later.)

I did? I must have been having one of my few intelligent days...

[SillySod]

There are too many reasons why I'm not a fan of removing re-rolls to bother listing them. Lets just say that vampires would be ruined

Perhaps you could keep RR but sell momentum counters as an inducement? To help encourage their use of risky plays you could say that the player has to use the inducement before the chosen player starts their action. So you wouldnt use momentum counters on a regular pickup but you might use them to go for that suicide blitz

[cyagen]

I like the concept, especially the change to Pro, but I doubt that it could fit in the current rules without a big rule overhaul.

The idea of making that an inducement is probably the only acceptable one.

[Warpstone]

I think Sillysod is right in that it's probably best to hybridize the momentum idea. Keep rerolls as they are and then reintroduce Coach figs into the mechanics: once per half (or game) your coach can void a turnover if no reroll was used on the failed action.

You could then also use inducements to buy extra Momentum/Coaching uses.

[Duke Jan]

The more perverse effect imo is that all ballplay will be succesful almost all the time.

If a player holding the ball causes a turnover, a momentum counter can not be used to prevent a turnover.

So this is not really a problem. I like the idea and I think a good deal of playtesting would show whether it is a good change or bad, it will affect play, but probably not for the worse (but that's my idea) Perhaps its an idea to give some teams re-rolls (like halflings) and others momentum counters (chaos) One issue I see is that the values of all players would need to be revised, at least I understood it as the momentum counters being free. Or am I wrong now?

[Andromidius]

Or simply allow a Reroll to be used to keep Momentium instead of rerolling the dice.

~Andromidius

[Jural]

Seems to me like the ball will be safe 99 % of the time, but for the risky heroïc plays. Ok your idea gives them more importance... but in the end i'd rather loose the ball to someone who came up with a brilliant play or who pressured me into making a mistake, than to the one "free kamikaze move" you would get each turn...

Clarification 1- It isn't clear, but my intention was that skill re-rolls and "momentum counters" would be mutually exclusive, just like re-rolls and skill re-rolls are now (for example, you can use Dodge or a Team Re-roll, but not both. Same idea with the momentum counters.)

Even aside from that clarification, your objection is what Darkson had noted, and what my 10 games of playtesting didn't uncover. If ballhandlers can use momentum counters, then you can dump the ball downfield and marked gutter runners or wood elf catchers can dodge away, walk to the ball, pick it up in no tackle zones, and score.

They would basically be nigh impossible to stop.

So I added in that a momentum counter can't be used when you have the ball. This is a little vague on the passing game, as one could argue that a turnover on a failed catch is "Caused" by the "Catcher" who doesn't have the ball... but I think it can at least be playtested now.

And I tried my best to say it- I don't think this is LRB 6 or 5 material. This is in new concepts, after all.

Using re-rolls as either momentum counters or re-rolls? That was my original idea 18 months ago, actually, but I decided to just go whole-hog and make it work as it is. But that may be the better option. I don't like the inducement idea personally, the underdogs already have too much fun in BB (Chainsaws, wizards, Master Chefs, etc.) I want this to be available to everyone.

Finally... yeah, this would hose vampires and chaos and some teams that start with no skill re-rolls. I am personally OK with this- I am old school fluff-wise, and think elf, dwarf, human, and orc teams should be the best, with a smattering of Skaven, Undead, and a single Chaos side also in the hunt
.

[lucasluckydelux]

Or simply allow a Reroll to be used to keep Momentium instead of rerolling the dice.

~Andromidius

Sounds interesting to me

[Jural]

There are too many reasons why I'm not a fan of removing re-rolls to bother listing them. Lets just say that vampires would be ruined

Vamps as is are fun in the LRB, and should only be tweaked with minor changes (I like the thralls ressurected as vampire and change to OFAB rule, but I also like the team as is.)

But they are already the most extreme Risk vs. Reward team in the game, I think it's pretty obvious that this might change their role... but I', really thinking of the game as a whole, not this one individual team.

Perhaps you could keep RR but sell momentum counters as an inducement? To help encourage their use of risky plays you could say that the player has to use the inducement before the chosen player starts their action. So you wouldnt use momentum counters on a regular pickup but you might use them to go for that suicide blitz

I'll keep this as a back-up plan! I don't like the idea of underdogs having all the fun.

The closest I'd come to that idea would be this- teams have both types of counters but only being able to use one of either type per turn. I think then your suggestion of declaring the use of momentum counter in advance is necessary.

[SillySod]

There are plenty of other reasons I dont like the idea as something for the mainstream, vampire teams was just my pettiest

[Jural]

There are plenty of other reasons I dont like the idea as something for the mainstream, vampire teams was just my pettiest

No doubt. Care to share them?

[Pug]

I like the Momentum idea, but can see the down side of completely scrapping the re-rolls. Warpstone had the best idea with the assistant coaches. (admittedly they would then have to become more expensive or number limited on the roster. The Momentum idea would work in most cases but there would have to be certain action results/failures etc that Momentum would not be allowed.

As first pointed out a good idea for a BB rules variation.