Diving Tackle only on one roll in RR2008?

[Gimli]

I still think the coach with DT should get to keep his player standing and a second chance to decide to use DT after he sees the RR, just like the coach with Dodge gets to keep his player standing (in his original square) and a second chance to decide to use Dodge after the RR.

Er - that's what the rules say.

I think you are agreeing with me.

But I think Galak and Ian Williams disagree - see their posts above. I'm saying if a player declares a DT use and the dodger declares a TRR, then the DT player is NOT placed prone. Rather he stays standing, the dodger rerolls, and the DT player gets to look at the rerolled dodge roll before deciding to use DT on the reroll. The difference is that he could stay standing after the second roll if the dodger fails the dodge without the DT, or the dodger succeeds even with DT. Is that how you play the rule?

[voyagers_uk]

My understanding of Tom's note was that the Dodge has to be resolved first. i.e.

Dodge fails roll and reroll - no need top go Prone
Dodge passes - no need to go prone unless you could influence the event
Dodge fails and passes reroll - no need tog o prone until after reroll and then only if you would influence event

[Grumbledook]

if you use DT on the first roll, then you use it on the second and go prone even if they still pass the second dodge roll

[GalakStarscraper]

Grumble has it right on his post.

Once you declare the use of Diving Tackle on the first roll ... it also applies to the 2nd roll. It just could be that the -2 won't be enough to change the 2nd result to a failure ... but it is still being applied.

And in your example ... Dodge with blocking doesn't count because Dodge has no penalty for using it.

The big big difference at hand is that using Diving Tackle has a penalty. Once you use it ... you put into motion your player going Prone. If the -2 modifier doesn't cause the re-rolled result to fail that's unforunate but doesn't remove the fact that the -2 modifer was being used and so Diving Tackle's penalty does apply.

Galak

[DoubleSkulls]

In all scenarios the player X is trying to dodge away from player Y. Player Y has diving tackle. X needs a 3 to dodge.

Scenario 1
X makes a dodge and rolls a 2 (failing the dodge). He rerolls and rolls a 2. X falls over, Y stays still.

Scenario 2
X makes a dodge and rolls a 2 (failing the dodge). He rerolls and rolls a 4. Y chooses to use DT. X falls over, Y goes prone.

Scenario 3
X makes a dodge and rolls a 4 (making the dodge). Y elects to use diving tackle. X rerolls and rolls a 2. X falls over, Y goes prone.

Scenario 4
X makes a dodge and rolls a 4 (making the dodge). Y elects to use diving tackle. X rerolls and rolls a 4. X falls over, Y goes prone.

Scenario 5
X makes a dodge and rolls a 4 (making the dodge). Y elects to use diving tackle. X rerolls and rolls a 6. X dodges, Y goes prone.

Scenario 6
X makes a dodge roll and rolls a 5 (making the dodge). X dodges, Y stays standing.

[GalakStarscraper]

The chart form of what Ian wrote looks like:

Code: Select all

Unmod'd    DT Mod'd    Reroll/   2nd Unmod'd  2nd DT Mod'd   Dodger   DT
Dodge      Dodge       Dodge?    Dodge        Dodge          Final    Final
Roll       Roll                                              State    State

Fail       Fail        No        N/A          N/A            Down     Standing
Fail       Fail        Yes       Fail         Fail           Down     Standing
Fail       Fail        Yes       Success      Fail           Down     Prone
Fail       Fail        Yes       Success      Success        Away     Standing
Success    Fail        No        N/A          N/A            Down     Prone
Success    Fail        Yes       N/A          Fail           Down     Prone
Success    Fail        Yes       N/A          Success        Away     Prone
Success    Success     N/A       N/A          N/A            Away     Standing

Galak

[Gimli]

Ian/Galak,

Thank you for your helpful summary and chart, each of which are consistent with the view that a DT player is forced to use the DT skill before seeing the result of the second Dodge roll.

I'd note, though, that both Darkson and voyagers_uk don't seem to share that view, or at least that's how I read their posts. See especially voyagers_uk's last post, where he says "Dodge fails and passes reroll - no need to go prone until after the reroll and then only if you would influence the event". Note also Darkson's pithy observation "Er - that's what the rules say" after he quoted my summary of how DT should work.

Each of these posts are consistent with the view that you always get to see the opponent's dice roll, whether original or RR, before deciding to use a skill. There is nothing at p. 14 that says you don't get to choose to use a skill after a RR. But I've made that point before ...

All or you are much more experienced than this rookie, so I will conclude by asking which is it? Are you forced to choose to use the DT before seeing the Dodge RR or not? I'm hearing two answers to this question.

(I realize I've probably tested everyone's patience to limit on this point, so rest assured this will be my last post on this topic. I would be curious, though, to know whether I interpreted Darkson's and voyager_uk's posts correctly.)

[DoubleSkulls]

The point you elect to use Diving Tackle is either after the first roll, or if you haven't already elected to use it, after the 2nd roll.

So in scenario 2 you don't decide to use DT until after you see the 4.

[Grumbledook]

Each of these posts are consistent with the view that you always get to see the opponent's dice roll, whether original or RR, before deciding to use a skill. There is nothing at p. 14 that says you don't get to choose to use a skill after a RR. But I've made that point before ...

not entirely the case, you can choose to use it after seeing the first roll, though if you do use it, then it automatically applies to the second roll, even if you didn't need it, or it makes no difference

if you didn't need it on the first roll, then you can choose to use it on the second after it has been made

so yer, voyagers and darkson are wrong, ignore them ;]

[Darkson]

I think I've been misunderstanding your wording (I agree with Galak and Ian) but I had a late-night shift yesterday, and an early shift today, so the brains a bit fuzzy this monrnig.

[Grumbledook]

you don't agree with me? i'm hurt

[DoubleSkulls]

Are we all in violent agreement? I think so.

Just to clarify - you only choose to use DT once. Either after seeing the first dodge roll, or after the seeing the second. If you elect to use it after the 1st roll then it applies to the 2nd roll and you always go prone.

This is covered implicitly in my scenarios 3, 4 & 5.

[GalakStarscraper]

Each of these posts are consistent with the view that you always get to see the opponent's dice roll, whether original or RR, before deciding to use a skill. There is nothing at p. 14 that says you don't get to choose to use a skill after a RR. But I've made that point before ...

And both Ian and I are saying you are correct. HOWEVER ... what you are not understanding is that if you've used Diving Tackle to influence the first skill roll than you HAVE to use it on the 2nd because its been used (and there is a penalty for using it even if you don't need it on the 2nd roll after using it on the 1st).

If the person would succeed at the Dodge roll unless you would use Diving Tackle than you cannot force them to re-roll the Dodge roll until you've actually used Diving Tackle to make the roll fail and then they can use some variety of re-roll to re-roll the result.

So you are getting to see the result before using Diving Tackle ... I think this is where you are confused.

Galak

[Oerjan]

Bringing up an old thread here... I'm sort-of glad to see that I wasn't the only one to misunderstand the "simplified" Diving Tackle description

Not to get too lawyerly, but isn't the effect of a RR to deem the first roll to have not occurred?

Not the way I see it, no. For me, the effect of an RR is to give the player a chance to recover a situation that is going bad but hasn't quite gone bad yet - eg. a catch that almost slips through the fingers but the catcher gets hold of the ball again at the last second, or a dodge where the dodger stumbles and almost falls but nevertheless manages to keep his balance and get clear.

If the player manages to pull through OK thanks to the reroll, it doesn't mean that the difficult situation he was in never occurred - on the contrary it did occur, that's why he had to use his skills/training in the first place! Since the diffcult situation did occur, any opponents' skills used to create that situation in the first place (eg. DT) stay used - you can't go back in time to make them unused again.

though for the record I don't think you can do that (apart from frenzy but that is 2 separate blocks not a rerolled 2nd block) as anything that modifies the first roll, applies to the second, that is in the rulebook

Hm. I'm fairly sure I've seen that somewhere in the book too, but I can't find it... so where is that rule? Galak, Ian... help?

Later,

Oerjan

[lerchey]

I'm going to jump in here, in full agreement with Galak's posts, but with maybe a different take on the explanation.

It was proposed that if you used DT on the first dodge to make the dodge fail, and then the dodging player re-rolled and failed, that the DT player would not need to use DT against the second dodge, and thus be still standing.

As Galak (and others) have stated, this is incorrect.

The reason is much simpler than anything I've seen posted, and here it is.

If the DT player was NOT using DT, then first dodge attempt would not have had to have been re-tried via the use of the dodge skill or a TRR. Thus, regardless of the outcome of the second roll, the DT player is prone. It's not that the first roll "never happened" - there is an application of a specific skill or a TRR to try to put in that extra effort to pull success from failure, but the DT player has executed his DT and is down.

Does that help?
At all?

J